---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 12 Jul 2002 05:52:55 GMT Subject: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020712015255.14924.00000147@mb-mc.aol.com> -------- Evidently you miss the last line of my reply, I don't care, if you want to believe the UFP isn't a communist goverment fine, how thier goverment is structured makes little differance to my conclusion. The federation is still morally reprehensable. War with the New Republic is still inevitable. P.S. the bit about Data being a moron, you brought up the reporters and camramen on the Ent-B (who get right up in Kirks face, hmm paparazzi lives) while Data told an unfozen 20th century guy, that TV did not last much beyond the 21'st century, " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:46:20 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <0syX8.58551$Bt1.3072155@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> -------- "Setesh" wrote in message news:20020712015255.14924.00000147@mb-mc.aol.com... > The federation is still morally reprehensable. Why? > P.S. the bit about Data being a moron, you brought up the reporters and > camramen on the Ent-B (who get right up in Kirks face, hmm paparazzi lives) > while Data told an unfozen 20th century guy, that TV did not last much beyond > the 21'st century, > " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." Why must a visual recording be used on a television? I've watched several downloaded programs and visual recordings on my computer, and my computer is not a television. Television as an independent technology could very well have ceased to exist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 12 Jul 2002 14:51:54 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020712105154.07885.00000195@mb-dh.aol.com> -------- >"Setesh" wrote in message >news:20020712015255.14924.00000147@mb-mc.aol.com... > >> The federation is still morally reprehensable. > >Why? > Leaving millions to die because of their 'Prime Directive', taking families and small children into lethal combat situations.... -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:06:17 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: -------- "Sir Nitram" wrote in message news:20020712105154.07885.00000195@mb-dh.aol.com... > >"Setesh" wrote in message > >news:20020712015255.14924.00000147@mb-mc.aol.com... > > > >> The federation is still morally reprehensable. > > > >Why? > > > > Leaving millions to die because of their 'Prime Directive', taking families and > small children into lethal combat situations.... Destroying billions with Death Stars, using dehumanized humans to kill their enemies... Oh, wait. Wrong guys. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 12 Jul 2002 16:53:25 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020712125325.07885.00000215@mb-dh.aol.com> -------- >"Sir Nitram" wrote in message >news:20020712105154.07885.00000195@mb-dh.aol.com... >> >"Setesh" wrote in message >> >news:20020712015255.14924.00000147@mb-mc.aol.com... >> > >> >> The federation is still morally reprehensable. >> > >> >Why? >> > >> >> Leaving millions to die because of their 'Prime Directive', taking >families and >> small children into lethal combat situations.... > >Destroying billions with Death Stars, using dehumanized humans to kill their >enemies... > >Oh, wait. Wrong guys. :) > See, the difference being we /know/ the Empire is evil, that's rather the /point/. The Federation just pretends it's different. -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:17:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <3d2f3953_1@news.cybersurf.net> -------- "Sir Nitram" wrote in message news:20020712125325.07885.00000215@mb-dh.aol.com... > > See, the difference being we /know/ the Empire is evil, that's rather the > /point/. The Federation just pretends it's different. > -- Sadly, last time I checked, over 50% of respondents to a poll on SD.net did not believe that the Empire was evil... -- -=Doomriser "There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages." -- Richard Lederer, "Anguished English" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 12 Jul 2002 20:41:24 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020712164124.07885.00000260@mb-dh.aol.com> -------- >"Sir Nitram" wrote in message >news:20020712125325.07885.00000215@mb-dh.aol.com... >> >> See, the difference being we /know/ the Empire is evil, that's rather the >> /point/. The Federation just pretends it's different. >> -- > >Sadly, last time I checked, over 50% of respondents to a poll on SD.net did >not believe that the Empire was evil... > I hope they agree that Tarkin's use of the Death Star, and Vader, etc, are all evil. -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:00:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <3d2f518c_1@news.cybersurf.net> -------- "Sir Nitram" wrote in message news:20020712164124.07885.00000260@mb-dh.aol.com... > >"Sir Nitram" wrote in message > >news:20020712125325.07885.00000215@mb-dh.aol.com... > >> > >> See, the difference being we /know/ the Empire is evil, that's rather the > > > > I hope they agree that Tarkin's use of the Death Star, and Vader, etc, are all > evil. > -- They believe that the DS destruction of Alderaan was justified as Alderaan was supporting rebel terrorists and had armaments and a planetary shield. And what's wrong with Vader, they would ask. -- -=Doomriser "There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages." -- Richard Lederer, "Anguished English" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 12 Jul 2002 22:23:08 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020712182308.07885.00000289@mb-dh.aol.com> -------- >"Sir Nitram" wrote in message >news:20020712164124.07885.00000260@mb-dh.aol.com... >> >"Sir Nitram" wrote in message >> >news:20020712125325.07885.00000215@mb-dh.aol.com... >> >> >> >> See, the difference being we /know/ the Empire is evil, that's rather >the >> > >> >> I hope they agree that Tarkin's use of the Death Star, and Vader, etc, are >all >> evil. >> -- >They believe that the DS destruction of Alderaan was justified as Alderaan >was supporting rebel terrorists and had armaments and a planetary shield. > >And what's wrong with Vader, they would ask. > Alright, that's just a bad, bad sign. -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 13 Jul 2002 04:30:27 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020713003027.02829.00000245@mb-cp.aol.com> -------- >>And what's wrong with Vader, they would ask. >> > >Alright, that's just a bad, bad sign. Why, Vader is in near constant pain and emotional suffering (see theforce.net 's page on Vader's injuries) of course he's going to lash out on occasion. But as Starscream said "I don't know what Megatron's up to, but I KNOW its going to be evil," Clang sound as he drops Bumblebee's severed head on the floor " and evil is always fun" " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Colin'The Yosemite Bear'Witz" Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:05:33 -0700 Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: -------- "Setesh" wrote in message news:20020713003027.02829.00000245@mb-cp.aol.com... > " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." Dude the way it's supposed to go. -- The exact quote from the Bhagavad-Gita is: If the radiance of a thousand suns Were to burst at once into the sky That would be like the splendor of the Mighty one ... I am become Death, The shatterer of Worlds. -The Bhagavad-Gita "...now I am become Death [Shiva], the destroyer of worlds..." Physicist Robert Oppenheimer, Supervising Scientist of the Manhattan Project on 16 July 1945 at 0529 HRS, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 16 Jul 2002 18:25:55 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020716142555.02188.00000698@mb-fs.aol.com> -------- >Dude the way it's supposed to go. > I'm quoting a fanfic, but I'm going to change it anyway, thank you, I always wondered where he got that Skywarp:"Starscream, What's Megatron's plan this time? Starscream:"Who cares? You just Know it's going to be evil. And evil is always fun." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Colin'The Yosemite Bear'Witz" Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:18:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: -------- "Setesh" wrote in message news:20020716142555.02188.00000698@mb-fs.aol.com... > >Dude the way it's supposed to go. > > > I'm quoting a fanfic, but I'm going to change it anyway, thank you, I always > wondered where he got that > > > Skywarp:"Starscream, What's Megatron's plan this time? > Starscream:"Who cares? You just Know it's going to be evil. And evil is always > fun." Well Azreal/Uriel is also the Proper name for the Archangel of Death, aka the Angel of the Passover. So it makes sense in that fashion too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Boyd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:44:38 +0100 Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: -------- Doomriser wrote: >> See, the difference being we /know/ the Empire is evil, that's rather the >> /point/. The Federation just pretends it's different. > Sadly, last time I checked, over 50% of respondents to a poll on SD.net did > not believe that the Empire was evil... Scary. -- Jonathan Boyd MSN/AIM: EmperorBoyd | Web: http://www.jboyd.co.uk/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 13 Jul 2002 04:23:15 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020713002315.02829.00000244@mb-cp.aol.com> -------- >> The federation is still morally reprehensable. > >Why? *sign* okay example #1: The Maquis The UFP sgns a treaty with the Cardassians that leave some UFP planets on the Cardassian side of the border, They send Picard to 'move' the population of one of these worlds, the colonists refuse to move, stuff about twitboy happens, the colonists say they'll stay and agree to the Cardassian Gul's assertion that they'll follow Cardassian laws, Picard asks them if their sure (this is the important bit) because if they stay will NO LONGER BE FEDERATION CITIZENS, if they call for help Starfleet will ignore them. Jump ahead to the start of the 'maquis situation' seen via DS9, an Admiral tell Sisko to meet with the Maquis leaders and remind them they are FEDERATION CITIZENS. despite the fact they they live in Cardassian space and are not entitled to starfleet aid or protection, yet they are for some reason bound by the laws of the federation. They then declaire the Maquis outlaws in the UFP as well and arrest those giving them aid The entire premise of VOY ep1 is based on the fact that Starfleet is helping the Cardassians hunt the Maquis down. Example #2 Families onboard The Enterprise (and several other Starships) carry Families onboard. This is an EXTREMELY bad idea as Federation ships and the Enterprise especially are placed in dangerous situation on a regular basis. How many of the 'casualties' we here about are the civilian spouses and children of the crew. The rational is that when 'knowingly' going into a dangerous situation the nonessetial personel and non starfleet occupants are placed in the saucer setion a seperated, but we rarly see this, and Riker even admits that the Enterprise isn't at full combat strength without the power of the saucer section. (his exact words are that they might need the power of the saucer section). 'In best of both worlds' they seperate the section then throw it at the borg cube as a decoy firing minor anti-matter charges. >> P.S. the bit about Data being a moron, you brought up the reporters and >> camramen on the Ent-B (who get right up in Kirks face, hmm paparazzi >lives) >> while Data told an unfozen 20th century guy, that TV did not last much >beyond >> the 21'st century, >> " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of >worlds." > >Why must a visual recording be used on a television? I've watched several >downloaded programs and visual recordings on my computer, and my computer is >not a television. Television as an independent technology could very well >have ceased to exist. a possibility, but its not the only time Data shows he's not all there, In anouther episode(whose title I can't recall at the moment) the enterprise is carrying samples of several incurable deseases, the sensors report that one of them has started increasing its population, Data says "the sensors may be malfuctioning, computer is growth actually occuring" Ok if you can't see what's wrong with this, here goes. The sensors Data believes may be malfunctioning are interprated into an understandable medium, the computer is 'seeing' the world through those same sensors Data says may not work right. He's asking the computer to verify sensor readings that may be false using the same supposidly malfutioning sensors. Simple sample: 2 guys in the desert. Guy1: I see a lake but I maybe hallucinating. Guy2:but is the lake real? " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 06:15:36 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <1F8Y8.94654$iX5.4251880@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> -------- "Setesh" wrote in message news:20020713002315.02829.00000244@mb-cp.aol.com... > >> The federation is still morally reprehensable. > > > >Why? > > *sign* okay > example #1: The Maquis > The UFP sgns a treaty with the Cardassians that leave some UFP planets on the > Cardassian side of the border, They send Picard to 'move' the population of one > of these worlds, the colonists refuse to move, stuff about twitboy happens, the > colonists say they'll stay and agree to the Cardassian Gul's assertion that > they'll follow Cardassian laws, Picard asks them if their sure (this is the > important bit) because if they stay will NO LONGER BE FEDERATION CITIZENS, if > they call for help Starfleet will ignore them. Jump ahead to the start of the > 'maquis situation' seen via DS9, an Admiral tell Sisko to meet with the Maquis > leaders and remind them they are FEDERATION CITIZENS. despite the fact they > they live in Cardassian space and are not entitled to starfleet aid or > protection, yet they are for some reason bound by the laws of the federation. > They then declaire the Maquis outlaws in the UFP as well and arrest those > giving them aid The entire premise of VOY ep1 is based on the fact that > Starfleet is helping the Cardassians hunt the Maquis down. I think you're confused. The Maquis operate from Federation colonies in the DMZ. The Native Americans were in Cardassian space. > Example #2 Families onboard > The Enterprise (and several other Starships) carry Families onboard. This is > an EXTREMELY bad idea as Federation ships and the Enterprise especially are > placed in dangerous situation on a regular basis. How many of the 'casualties' > we here about are the civilian spouses and children of the crew. Starfleet never orders people to take their families, but they do make the option available. It isn't evil to give people the option to do something dangerous if they want to. > The sensors Data believes may be malfunctioning are interprated into an > understandable medium, the computer is 'seeing' the world through those same > sensors Data says may not work right. He's asking the computer to verify > sensor readings that may be false using the same supposidly malfutioning > sensors. Actually, the pod thing they were transporting the specimens in reported growth, as I recall. Data would have been asking the computer to confirm this with Enterprise sensors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 06:22:24 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: -------- "Setesh" wrote in message news:20020713002315.02829.00000244@mb-cp.aol.com... > >> The federation is still morally reprehensable. > > > >Why? > > *sign* okay > example #1: The Maquis > The UFP sgns a treaty with the Cardassians that leave some UFP planets on the > Cardassian side of the border, They send Picard to 'move' the population of one > of these worlds, the colonists refuse to move, stuff about twitboy happens, the > colonists say they'll stay and agree to the Cardassian Gul's assertion that > they'll follow Cardassian laws, Picard asks them if their sure (this is the > important bit) because if they stay will NO LONGER BE FEDERATION CITIZENS, if > they call for help Starfleet will ignore them. Jump ahead to the start of the > 'maquis situation' seen via DS9, an Admiral tell Sisko to meet with the Maquis > leaders and remind them they are FEDERATION CITIZENS. despite the fact they > they live in Cardassian space and are not entitled to starfleet aid or > protection, yet they are for some reason bound by the laws of the federation. > They then declaire the Maquis outlaws in the UFP as well and arrest those > giving them aid The entire premise of VOY ep1 is based on the fact that > Starfleet is helping the Cardassians hunt the Maquis down. I think you're confused. The Maquis operate from Federation colonies in the DMZ. The Native Americans were in Cardassian space. > Example #2 Families onboard > The Enterprise (and several other Starships) carry Families onboard. This is > an EXTREMELY bad idea as Federation ships and the Enterprise especially are > placed in dangerous situation on a regular basis. How many of the 'casualties' > we here about are the civilian spouses and children of the crew. Starfleet never orders people to take their families, but they do make the option available. It isn't evil to give people the option to do something dangerous if they want to. > The sensors Data believes may be malfunctioning are interprated into an > understandable medium, the computer is 'seeing' the world through those same > sensors Data says may not work right. He's asking the computer to verify > sensor readings that may be false using the same supposidly malfutioning > sensors. Actually, the pod thing they were transporting the specimens in reported growth, as I recall. Data would have been asking the computer to confirm this with Enterprise sensors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 14 Jul 2002 08:48:32 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020714044832.02133.00000308@mb-fd.aol.com> -------- >I think you're confused. > >The Maquis operate from Federation colonies in the DMZ. The Native >Americans were in Cardassian space. semantics, in fact this makes the federation worse since the Maquis is formed because the cardassians 'citizens' attacking them, the fed response is to kindly ask the cardassian goverment to stop it, do they help the supposed 'federation colonies' in any other way? And before you bring up that little trip with Dukat, he wants in Kira's pants, and at that point most of his bosses hate him, he need political leverage back home and this will (probly) look good for him >Starfleet never orders people to take their families, but they do make the >option available. It isn't evil to give people the option to do something >dangerous if they want to. The mere fact the OFFER is idiotic. This is a MILITARY vessel, it is one of the strongest they have for several years, its going to go into combat, repeatedly, they must know this, This is like having families aboard an aircraft carrier then sending it on a patrol that takes it to the territorial waters of countries who hate us >Actually, the pod thing they were transporting the specimens in reported >growth, as I recall. Data would have been asking the computer to confirm >this with Enterprise sensors. they acctually never mention whether the ships sensors report it or the Pod's, however this is not the only example in 'Ensigns of Command' Data cannot convince a group of crashed colonists to leave, four words would have convinced them "Asteroid dropped from orbit" if need be followed by "200 to 500 Megaton impact" In 'Evolution' a fake sensor reading and image of a borg cube appear then vanish, due to the 'computer glitch' problem their having Data says "It is conceivable that we were viewing a synthetically generated image... although there is no precedent for it." Three epissodes earlyer During the tactical simulation war games Worf caused this exact phenominon to occur, Data was present for it, Also from evolution Data says: "There has not been a system-wide technological failure on a starship in seventy-nine years." Yet 13 eps earlyer in 'Contagion' the USS Yamato is destroyed by a system-wide failure, the Enterprise nearly suffers it as well but they Figure out that a simple powerdown reboot will solve the problem In 'Relics' Data states that the interior of a 100km sphere is 1E16 kmē, its 1E17 kmē, Data flunks geometry that my $50 TI-84 calculator I bought way back in highschool can do, and make a nice graph for. " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:56:39 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: -------- "Setesh" wrote in message news:20020714044832.02133.00000308@mb-fd.aol.com... > >I think you're confused. > > > >The Maquis operate from Federation colonies in the DMZ. The Native > >Americans were in Cardassian space. > > semantics, Um, no, location. > >Starfleet never orders people to take their families, but they do make the > >option available. It isn't evil to give people the option to do something > >dangerous if they want to. > > The mere fact the OFFER is idiotic. This is a MILITARY vessel, it is one of > the strongest they have for several years, its going to go into combat, As far as I know, Starfleet ships didn't carry families in wartime. Yes, the ship went into battle in peacetime, but this was relatively rare. Dedicated combat ships such as the Defiant had no provisions for families, and I'd imagine border patrol ships didn't, either. > >Actually, the pod thing they were transporting the specimens in reported > >growth, as I recall. Data would have been asking the computer to confirm > >this with Enterprise sensors. > > they acctually never mention whether the ships sensors report it or the Pod's, > however this is not the only example > > in 'Ensigns of Command' Data cannot convince a group of crashed colonists to > leave, four words would have convinced them "Asteroid dropped from orbit" > if need be followed by "200 to 500 Megaton impact" This episode came on TV recently. The colony leader was a dumbass. The simple fact that the Sheliak were coming in a ship with plans to colonize should have been enough. Ship=orbital bombardment, or colony=lots of Sheliak, and you know they don't like you. The man was impervious to logic (clearly the writer spent some time at ASVS... hehehe), so Data took action. I'd say that's pretty good of him. > In 'Evolution' a fake sensor reading and image of a borg cube appear then > vanish, due to the 'computer glitch' problem their having > Data says > "It is conceivable that we were viewing a synthetically generated image... > although there is no precedent for it." > > Three epissodes earlyer During the tactical simulation war games Worf caused > this exact phenominon to occur, Data was present for it, But there's a difference. Worf was making it happen last time. This was totally generated by the computer. > Also from evolution Data says: > "There has not been a system-wide technological failure on a starship in > seventy-nine years." > > Yet 13 eps earlyer in 'Contagion' the USS Yamato is destroyed by a system-wide > failure, the Enterprise nearly suffers it as well but they Figure out that a > simple powerdown reboot will solve the problem That wasn't a systemwide tech failure, that was an attack on the computer systems by a long-dead race who managed to build stargates, make things out of neutronium, and have equipment that would still operate 200,000 years after an orbital bombardment. I'd say calling that a "failure" would be like calling Hiroshima an accidental kitchen fire. > In 'Relics' Data states that the interior of a 100km sphere is 1E16 kmē, its > 1E17 kmē, Data flunks geometry that my $50 TI-84 calculator I bought way back > in highschool can do, and make a nice graph for. Did you account for the thickness of the sphere, or variations from rounding when he said 100 kilometers? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 14 Jul 2002 16:24:27 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020714122427.08273.00000525@mb-fj.aol.com> -------- >> semantics, > >Um, no, location. > Did you bother to read the rest >As far as I know, Starfleet ships didn't carry families in wartime. Yes, >the ship went into battle in peacetime, but this was relatively rare. Your joking right, or did the point go completly over your head >Dedicated combat ships such as the Defiant had no provisions for families, >and I'd imagine border patrol ships didn't, either. > Since most border patrol ships were built in Kirks time (Excelsiors) I'd agree >The colony leader was a dumbass. The >simple fact that the Sheliak were coming in a ship with plans to colonize >should have been enough. Ship=orbital bombardment, or colony=lots of >Sheliak, and you know they don't like you. The man was impervious to logic >(clearly the writer spent some time at ASVS... hehehe), so Data took action. >I'd say that's pretty good of him Of course, they're trekkies This also goes to prove Data is a moron, Considering his physical strength when the leader started ranting about his ansestor on the hill and the aquaduct he should have walked over and destroyed it, none of the colonists were armed at that point, and they won't need the aquaduct either way, my 10yr old cousin came up with that the first time he saw the ep >But there's a difference. Worf was making it happen last time. This was >totally generated by the computer. > Worf told the computer to generate the image it did, the 'glitch' caused the computer to generate the image in the exact same manner, Data was speaking of the computers ability to GENERATE the image not where the command to do so came from >That wasn't a systemwide tech failure, that was an attack on the computer >systems by a long-dead race who managed to build stargates, make things out >of neutronium, and have equipment that would still operate 200,000 years >after an orbital bombardment. I'd say calling that a "failure" would be >like calling Hiroshima an accidental kitchen fire. *sigh* However a failure occurs its still a failure, the program causing the failure wasn't even designed to do so, this also points out the fact that for some reason Federation computer tech is incapable of partitioning the system, an ability my 6 yr old IBM can pull off so if I get virused its not the end of my computer >Did you account for the thickness of the sphere, or variations from rounding >when he said 100 kilometers? > He stated the INTERIOR diameter in 100km, so 1E17 kmē is correct since they haven't scanned it yet to add the variations caused by the 'ground' contours I forgot to metion a big one, While talking to Roga Danar he states, "I am not programed to kill" Yet he does kill, repeatedly, He even attempts murder in the ep where he's stolen by the collector, he would have to if the Ent hadn't 'beamed' him off at that point, Data is also shown to believe in fate, 'Arrow in time', despite the fact that belief is an emotional responce, so either Data is a moron or he has severly faulty programming " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 01:35:47 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: -------- "Setesh" wrote in message news:20020714122427.08273.00000525@mb-fj.aol.com... > >> semantics, > > > >Um, no, location. > > > > Did you bother to read the rest Yes. It was a waste of time, and some was off topic. What do Kira's pants have to do with anything at all? > > >As far as I know, Starfleet ships didn't carry families in wartime. Yes, > >the ship went into battle in peacetime, but this was relatively rare. > > Your joking right, or did the point go completly over your head Sorry, neither. > This also goes to prove Data is a moron, Considering his physical strength when > the leader started ranting about his ansestor on the hill and the aquaduct he > should have walked over and destroyed it, none of the colonists were armed at > that point, and they won't need the aquaduct either way, my 10yr old cousin > came up with that the first time he saw the ep No, because that would have gotten him involved in a fistfight. Think about the time it would take for Data to walk around tearing things up as opposed to him shooting the thing and causing the little cascade reaction that ran all the way up the duct. Sure, Data could probably have overpowered many of the colonists in hand to hand combat, no holds barred... but that wasn't what he was there for. Data had the better plan. > >But there's a difference. Worf was making it happen last time. This was > >totally generated by the computer. > > > > Worf told the computer to generate the image it did, the 'glitch' caused the > computer to generate the image in the exact same manner, Data was speaking of > the computers ability to GENERATE the image not where the command to do so came > from "It is conceivable that we were viewing a synthetically generated image... although there is no precedent for it." The "glitch" was the source. There was no precedent for a glitch being the source. Duh. > >That wasn't a systemwide tech failure, that was an attack on the computer > >systems by a long-dead race who managed to build stargates, make things out > >of neutronium, and have equipment that would still operate 200,000 years > >after an orbital bombardment. I'd say calling that a "failure" would be > >like calling Hiroshima an accidental kitchen fire. > > *sigh* However a failure occurs its still a failure, Uh, right. So anytime a starship is destroyed, it is a "systemwide technological failure", I guess. That's a stupid definition. > the program causing the > failure wasn't even designed to do so, this also points out the fact that for > some reason Federation computer tech is incapable of partitioning the system, Partitioning the system? Do you have any proof that the thing couldn't have jumped partitions? > >Did you account for the thickness of the sphere, or variations from rounding > >when he said 100 kilometers? > > > He stated the INTERIOR diameter in 100km, so 1E17 kmē is correct since they > haven't scanned it yet to add the variations caused by the 'ground' contours > > I forgot to metion a big one, While talking to Roga Danar he states, "I am not > programed to kill" Yet he does kill, repeatedly, His entire character arc is based on his growth as a person, beyond his programming. Besides, another episode has him saying that he can kill... I think it is the one with Kivas Fajo you mention below: >He even attempts murder in the > ep where he's stolen by the collector, he would have to if the Ent hadn't > 'beamed' him off at that point, That was hardly murder. Also, I think it was made pretty clear in that episode that he had not killed anyone up to that point. > Data is also shown to believe in fate, 'Arrow in time', despite the fact that > belief is an emotional responce, Belief is not necessarily an emotional response. What is the quote? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 15 Jul 2002 15:39:24 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020715113924.02154.00000276@mb-fs.aol.com> -------- >Yes. It was a waste of time, and some was off topic. What do Kira's pants >have to do with anything at all? > Before the bit about Gul Dukat, which was included because that was brought up the last time this was discussed. >> >As far as I know, Starfleet ships didn't carry families in wartime. >Yes, >> >the ship went into battle in peacetime, but this was relatively rare. >> >> Your joking right, or did the point go completly over your head > >Sorry, neither. yet you made that statment >No, because that would have gotten him involved in a fistfight. Think >about the time it would take for Data to walk around tearing things up as >opposed to him shooting the thing and causing the little cascade reaction >that ran all the way up the duct. >Sure, Data could probably have overpowered many of the colonists in hand to >hand combat, no holds barred... but that wasn't what he was there for. >Data had the better plan. not until he got turned off and discussed it with his ally among the colonists and he made a logical conclusion. Like all computers Data is an idiot, a very sophisticated idiot, programed to emulate human behavior, but still an idiot, a short fist fight against the leader and the two or three of his cronies who may or may not help him, non of whom are armed, would have saved a lot of time, he ended up wasting a lot of time talking, >"It is conceivable that we were viewing a synthetically generated image... >although there is no precedent for it." so you concede >The "glitch" was the source. There was no precedent for a glitch being the >source. Duh. so you are an idiot who can't read, Worf created a synthetic (FAKE) image, the 'glich' created a synthetic (FAKE) image Data isn't talking about the source unless you really twist his words >Uh, right. So anytime a starship is destroyed, it is a "systemwide >technological failure", I guess. That's a stupid definition. no everytime the ship blows up because the computers fail without physical damage, >Partitioning the system? Do you have any proof that the thing couldn't have >jumped partitions? > do you have any proof it could, we've seen multiple examples of their computer exicuting invasive programs which they can't do anything about because everything is computer dependant, would it kill them to have manual backups. >That was hardly murder. yeah, shooting a man who has dropped his weapon and surrendered isn't murder except in every state in the union, Canada, and most other countries. Revenge is murder. >Belief is not necessarily an emotional response. What is the quote? DATA: In relative terms, perhaps not. Nevertheless, it seems clear that my life is to end in the late nineteenth century. RIKER: Not if we can help it. DATA: There is nothing anyone can do to prevent it, sir. At some future date, I will be transported back to nineteenth century Earth... where I will die. It has occurred. It will occur. ... (snip) PICARD: This investigation began with your death... I am simply trying to see that it doesn't end the same way. DATA: While I appreciate your concern, sir, if I may employ an aphorism, one cannot cheat fate. PICARD: Cheat fate? Perhaps we can't, Mister Data. But, to be honest, I don't think I could forgive myself, if we didn't at least give it a try. Belief without evidence is emotional, not logical. Reading through your response I noticed you read alot of extra words into my statments, or you read them in part and attack the minor points, completely avoiding the major, thats if you don't misread them entirly, how long have you had this problem with comprehesion " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:35:44 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <4CEY8.100512$iB1.5687660@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> -------- "Setesh" wrote in message news:20020715113924.02154.00000276@mb-fs.aol.com... > >Yes. It was a waste of time, and some was off topic. What do Kira's pants > >have to do with anything at all? > > > > Before the bit about Gul Dukat, which was included because that was brought up > the last time this was discussed. I don't know anything about that. I didn't bring up squat about Dukat. > >No, because that would have gotten him involved in a fistfight. Think > >about the time it would take for Data to walk around tearing things up as > >opposed to him shooting the thing and causing the little cascade reaction > >that ran all the way up the duct. > > >Sure, Data could probably have overpowered many of the colonists in hand to > >hand combat, no holds barred... but that wasn't what he was there for. > >Data had the better plan. > > not until he got turned off and discussed it with his ally among the colonists > and he made a logical conclusion. Like all computers Data is an idiot, a very > sophisticated idiot, programed to emulate human behavior, but still an idiot, a > short fist fight against the leader and the two or three of his cronies who may > or may not help him, non of whom are armed, would have saved a lot of time, he > ended up wasting a lot of time talking, Oh please. Do you even watch Star Trek? How many times does any officer start a fistfight because someone is uncooperative? Why would Data bother breaking heads and destroying aqueducts at that point anyway? It isn't like they could leave right away. > >"It is conceivable that we were viewing a synthetically generated image... > >although there is no precedent for it." > > so you concede No, idiot. > >The "glitch" was the source. There was no precedent for a glitch being the > >source. Duh. > > so you are an idiot who can't read, Worf created a synthetic (FAKE) image, the > 'glich' created a synthetic (FAKE) image Data isn't talking about the source > unless you really twist his words Twist his words? You just agreed with me! Read what you just wrote. Idiot. > >Uh, right. So anytime a starship is destroyed, it is a "systemwide > >technological failure", I guess. That's a stupid definition. > > no everytime the ship blows up because the computers fail without physical > damage, Oh, physical damage! So, Iconian software weapon damage just doesn't count because you don't want it to! Okay, I see. > >That was hardly murder. > > yeah, shooting a man who has dropped his weapon and surrendered isn't murder > except in every state in the union, Canada, and most other countries. Revenge > is murder. He needed killin'. > >Belief is not necessarily an emotional response. What is the quote? > > DATA: In relative terms, perhaps not. Nevertheless, it seems clear that my life > is to end in the late nineteenth century. > RIKER: Not if we can help it. > DATA: There is nothing anyone can do to prevent it, sir. At some future date, I > will be transported back to nineteenth century Earth... where I will die. It > has occurred. It will occur. > ... > (snip) > PICARD: This investigation began with your death... I am simply trying to see > that it doesn't end the same way. > DATA: While I appreciate your concern, sir, if I may employ an aphorism, one > cannot cheat fate. > PICARD: Cheat fate? Perhaps we can't, Mister Data. But, to be honest, I don't > think I could forgive myself, if we didn't at least give it a try. > > Belief without evidence is emotional, not logical. Belief without evidence? He held his own damn head!! > Reading through your response I noticed you read alot of extra words into my > statments, or you read them in part and attack the minor points, completely > avoiding the major, thats if you don't misread them entirly, how long have you > had this problem with comprehesion If there is such a problem, it is because you have the writing style and quality of a five year old, with brains to match. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 15 Jul 2002 22:03:54 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020715180354.02201.00000061@mb-mc.aol.com> -------- >I don't know anything about that. I didn't bring up squat about Dukat. > once again you missed the point, I have had this conversation before, Gul Dukat was brought up as a counter by 12 other posters, I was trying to head off that argument. >Oh please. Do you even watch Star Trek? How many times does any officer >start a fistfight because someone is uncooperative? Why would Data bother >breaking heads and destroying aqueducts at that point anyway? It isn't like >they could leave right away. Data is a machine, he's suppose to think logically, when dippy disagree's with him the colonists follow dippy because he's has power in their eyes, logical conclution, remove his power, best method:Destroy the aquaduct he's so proud of and can't seem to shut up about, Leap of logic time required, Jessica, 10yr old cousin, figured it out during the comercial break with no promting Data, Android, took several hours to figure it out and required outside input >> >The "glitch" was the source. There was no precedent for a glitch being >the >> >source. Duh. >> >> so you are an idiot who can't read, Worf created a synthetic (FAKE) image, >the >> 'glich' created a synthetic (FAKE) image Data isn't talking about the >source >> unless you really twist his words > >Twist his words? You just agreed with me! Read what you just wrote. >Idiot. Okay, You specifically stated that your interpreting Data's statment as pertaining to the 'source' of the image, I just pointed out that he is talking 'about' the image the next 5 lines of dialogue are about the 'source', ie the 'glitch', I point out your mistake and give examples, same event, differant 'sources', I what way am I agreeing with you? >Oh, physical damage! So, Iconian software weapon damage just doesn't count >because you don't want it to! Okay, I see. > since its not a weapon no it doesn't, its a freakin probe >He needed killin'. so, does that negate it being murder, I'd like to see someone use that in a successful defense >Belief without evidence? He held his own damn head!! > > The 'fate' statment, even holding his own head, it was possible to avoid his own destruction, he 'choose' to let it happen >If there is such a problem, it is because you have the writing style and >quality of a five year old, with brains to match. > I've had to 'dumb down' alot of my statments, if I don't you misread them, of course seeing as you misreading them anyway I shouldn't bother. " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:50:46 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: -------- "Setesh" wrote in message news:20020715180354.02201.00000061@mb-mc.aol.com... > >I don't know anything about that. I didn't bring up squat about Dukat. > > > > once again you missed the point, I have had this conversation before, Gul Dukat > was brought up as a counter by 12 other posters, I was trying to head off that > argument. > > >Oh please. Do you even watch Star Trek? How many times does any officer > >start a fistfight because someone is uncooperative? Why would Data bother > >breaking heads and destroying aqueducts at that point anyway? It isn't like > >they could leave right away. > > Data is a machine, he's suppose to think logically, when dippy disagree's with > him the colonists follow dippy because he's has power in their eyes, logical > conclution, remove his power, best method:Destroy the aquaduct he's so proud of > and can't seem to shut up about, And force the Enterprise to shuttle down the colony's water needs until they can be evacuated? That's stupid. There was no reason to make that the first step. > >Oh, physical damage! So, Iconian software weapon damage just doesn't count > >because you don't want it to! Okay, I see. > > > > since its not a weapon no it doesn't, its a freakin probe So, I guess the millions people spend on computer virus damage is just Monopoly money? > >Belief without evidence? He held his own damn head!! > > > > > > The 'fate' statment, even holding his own head, it was possible to avoid his > own destruction, he 'choose' to let it happen It _already_ happened! He held his own damn head!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 16 Jul 2002 18:52:15 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020716145215.02188.00000699@mb-fs.aol.com> -------- >And force the Enterprise to shuttle down the colony's water needs until they >can be evacuated? That's stupid. There was no reason to make that the >first step. since he ended up doing it anyway what's your point, they state It will be weeks before a colony ship can arrive, and these guys are FARMERS, they have to store water anyway, they most likly have enough to last without rationing, even if they don't Data has to make a trip a day, the colony isn't that large, one shuttle can carry the quart a day ration needed for everyone. >So, I guess the millions people spend on computer virus damage is just >Monopoly money? *sigh* I'm getting real tired of this, its not a weapon, its not a virus, it triggers the failure because the systems aren't compatable, in computers today this results in either an error message, or system lock up, the trek computer is so badly designed it causes catastrophic failure, in a decently designed ship there would be a backup computer that is PHYSICALY seperate from the main, it doesn't have to be as large or powerful just enough to run ship systems >It _already_ happened! He held his own damn head!! > > as trekkies such as yourself have pointed out, the trek temporal mechanics are so flexible it is possible to alter future and past events, your holding your own thick skull from where you where killed a 100 years ago, you can avoid this, don't go back in time, Data walks straight into it eyes wide open, Skywarp:"Starscream, What's Megatron's plan this time? Starscream:"Who cares? You just Know it's going to be evil. And evil is always fun." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:15:19 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: -------- "Setesh" wrote in message news:20020716145215.02188.00000699@mb-fs.aol.com... > >And force the Enterprise to shuttle down the colony's water needs until they > >can be evacuated? That's stupid. There was no reason to make that the > >first step. > > since he ended up doing it anyway what's your point, they state It will be > weeks before a colony ship can arrive, and these guys are FARMERS, they have to > store water anyway, they most likly have enough to last without rationing, even > if they don't Data has to make a trip a day, the colony isn't that large, one > shuttle can carry the quart a day ration needed for everyone. 1. I thought people were supposed to drink a gallon a day. 2. You're missing the point. Blowing shit up and breaking heads is not the first thing a Federation officer is supposed to do, and declaring someone stupid on that basis is a dumb idea. > >So, I guess the millions people spend on computer virus damage is just > >Monopoly money? > > *sigh* I'm getting real tired of this, its not a weapon, its not a virus, it > triggers the failure because the systems aren't compatable, The analogy is valid. The effects were the same. > in computers today > this results in either an error message, or system lock up, the trek computer > is so badly designed it causes catastrophic failure, Just because some stupid home PC doesn't cause a house to explode doesn't mean the computer is of a bad design. I'd imagine if it were running a nuclear reactor, though, things could get bad. > >It _already_ happened! He held his own damn head!! > > > > > > as trekkies such as yourself have pointed out, the trek temporal mechanics are > so flexible it is possible to alter future and past events, your holding your > own thick skull from where you where killed a 100 years ago, you can avoid > this, don't go back in time, Data walks straight into it eyes wide open, The closest similar situation would be "Time Squared", when the crew knows good and well that the ship will blow up in a matter of hours, and they choose to change that fact. The important difference here is that Data's head was on Earth. He could not know what effect he would or would not have on the timeline and Earth history by going or refusing to go. It had happened, and it had to happen again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 17 Jul 2002 20:13:27 GMT Subject: Re: Re:Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020717161327.10380.00000110@mb-bg.aol.com> -------- >1. I thought people were supposed to drink a gallon a day. a quart is nessicary for survival, a gallon is recomended, though you can survive on less we want them functional >2. You're missing the point. Blowing shit up and breaking heads is not the >first thing a Federation officer is supposed to do, and declaring someone >stupid on that basis is a dumb idea. I never claimed the federation officers were smart either, the UFP should (most goverments like our own do) have an 'eminant domain' clause to provide for the forcable removal of civilians, they aparently do as seen in later episodes, in the real world it works like this (with Data's actions in ()). You are offered twice what your land is worth to leave if you start to say no you are reminded that they can legally kick you off by force,(Data can't do this on the moneyless federation so he tries and fails to talk them into leaving, he makes vague mention of the Sheliak's contempt for human life) You are forcibly removed from the rock your standing on. (DAta talks to the few colonists who are willing to leave, dippy shows up turns Data off) You are givin half what your stuff is worth and sent on your way (Data fixes his phaser so it works scares the colonists into leaving, brings up points he should have earlyer like there a thousands of Sheliak (the colonists were probly expecting the same number as most fed colonies a few hundred) they can kill them from orbit, ect. He never had to convince the clueless dippy just make him look like a suicidal fool for staying, breaking the powerstation the first time they refused would have saved a lot of time, >Just because some stupid home PC doesn't cause a house to explode doesn't >mean the computer is of a bad design. I'd imagine if it were running a >nuclear reactor, though, things could get bad. > no they wouldn't because unlike the federation basic safty systems and redundant engineering are not forien concepts, a reactors control rods are suspended against gravity by electromagnets, if the computer faiils power to the magnets is cut (there is a manual cut off switch just in case and unlike fed starships the computer can't overide manuel control it does as it should work the other way 'round) the rods drop reactor activity is shut off. >The closest similar situation would be "Time Squared", when the crew knows >good and well that the ship will blow up in a matter of hours, and they >choose to change that fact. The important difference here is that Data's >head was on Earth. He could not know what effect he would or would not have >on the timeline and Earth history by going or refusing to go. It had >happened, and it had to happen again. Data forms a causality loop, by personally going down to investigate the source of an alien bacteria found with his head, leads him to be throw back in time and lose it, if he had stayed on the Enterprise where they intentionally left him to prevent this, but Data is to wrapped up in this whole 'knowing I will die makes me closer to being human' bit to realize it and build the device Geordi does later instead of using his own componants, while not going forms a paradox the timeline can deal with it. Skywarp:"Starscream, What's Megatron's plan this time? Starscream:"Who cares? You just Know it's going to be evil. And evil is always fun." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:40:42 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <3d31b6d4.82554388@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On 14 Jul 2002 08:48:32 GMT, setesh@aol.com (Setesh) wrote: >>I think you're confused. >> >>The Maquis operate from Federation colonies in the DMZ. The Native >>Americans were in Cardassian space. > >semantics, Do you know what a DMZ is? A 'demilitarised zone'. NO WEAPONS ALLOWED. The Maquis are terrorists. The premise of 'Caretaker' is NOT the Federation helping Cardies hunt down the Maquis, but rather the Federation TRYING TO FIND ONE OF THEIR UNDERCOVER OPERATIVES. >>Starfleet never orders people to take their families, but they do make the >>option available. It isn't evil to give people the option to do something >>dangerous if they want to. > >The mere fact the OFFER is idiotic. This is a MILITARY vessel, it is one of >the strongest they have for several years, its going to go into combat, >repeatedly, they must know this, This is like having families aboard an >aircraft carrier then sending it on a patrol that takes it to the territorial >waters of countries who hate us It's not a military vessel, at the time of TNG the Federation is not at war. It is an exploratory vessel, and it is peacetime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 14 Jul 2002 20:06:58 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020714160658.08278.00000517@mb-fj.aol.com> -------- >Do you know what a DMZ is? A 'demilitarised zone'. NO WEAPONS ALLOWED. >The Maquis are terrorists. >The premise of 'Caretaker' is NOT the Federation helping Cardies hunt >down the Maquis, but rather the Federation TRYING TO FIND ONE OF THEIR >UNDERCOVER OPERATIVES. *smack* oh of coarse having an undercover operative to give them the inside information on the maquis so they can catch them all has nothing to do with hunting them down. And yes I am aware thats what DMZ stands for, hence why the Maquis are based there >It's not a military vessel, at the time of TNG the Federation is not >at war. It is an exploratory vessel, and it is peacetime. this is the most pathetic argument yet, your saying their sending a ship full of families to explore regions of space that may belong to someone else who may not appreciate trespassers and is constintly sent to such areas as the neutral zone, and frequently goes on non-exploration high risk missions, your argument is their not immoral their morons? " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:31:19 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <3d335a3e.12735478@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On 14 Jul 2002 20:06:58 GMT, setesh@aol.com (Setesh) wrote: >>Do you know what a DMZ is? A 'demilitarised zone'. NO WEAPONS ALLOWED. >>The Maquis are terrorists. >>The premise of 'Caretaker' is NOT the Federation helping Cardies hunt >>down the Maquis, but rather the Federation TRYING TO FIND ONE OF THEIR >>UNDERCOVER OPERATIVES. > >*smack* oh of coarse having an undercover operative to give them the inside >information on the maquis so they can catch them all has nothing to do with >hunting them down. And yes I am aware thats what DMZ stands for, hence why the >Maquis are based there And you realise that them using WEAPONS in this DMZ makes them TERRORISTS and as they are operating from FEDERATION COLONIES (not the CARDASSIAN ONES AS YOU WOULD CLAIM), that makes them FEDERATION TERRORISTS. Why is it thus wrong for the FEDERATION to HUNT them DOWN? >>It's not a military vessel, at the time of TNG the Federation is not >>at war. It is an exploratory vessel, and it is peacetime. > >this is the most pathetic argument yet, your saying their sending a ship full >of families to explore regions of space that may belong to someone else who may >not appreciate trespassers and is constintly sent to such areas as the neutral >zone, and frequently goes on non-exploration high risk missions, I'll reiterate. The Enterprise is not a military vessel. It is a scientific exploratory vessel. There are Starfleet personnel on board. There are civillian scientists on board. There are civillian families who CHOOSE to be there. There is NO reason for a SCIENTIFIC EXPLORATORY SHIP during PEACETIME to not carry civillians on board. Now what reasons would you give for people to not have the choice to travel on an EXPLORATORY ship at a time where the Federation is at PEACE? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 16 Jul 2002 06:30:18 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020716023018.07847.00000852@mb-fe.aol.com> -------- >And you realise that them using WEAPONS in this DMZ makes them >TERRORISTS and as they are operating from FEDERATION COLONIES (not the >CARDASSIAN ONES AS YOU WOULD CLAIM), that makes them FEDERATION >TERRORISTS. Why is it thus wrong for the FEDERATION to HUNT them DOWN? aparently you missed thereason they became terrorist, THE FEDERATION REFUSED TO HELP THEM, yes most of the Maquis are from the DMZ, its not wrong to hunt them down its wrong to have let it happen in the first place >I'll reiterate. oh joy >The Enterprise is not a military vessel. the UFP charter states that starfleet is an "armed peacekeeping force" ie a military unit, >It is a scientific exploratory vessel. > same charter differant article states that "Starfleet Headquarters and the Federation Council shall be at all times kept informed of the activities undertaken, or contemplated, for scientific exploration and investigation. Any ship so employed shall be detached from military fleet duty and reassigned as a nonmilitary scientific unit of the United Federation" so starfleet is a MILITARY fleet, ships that are exploring or conducting research are on detached duty, so they are still a military vessel but are temporarily reassigned to exploration >There are Starfleet personnel on board. duh >There are civillian scientists on board. I have yet to see one, we almost never see scientists who aren't in a starfleet uniform and virtually all of them are mavericks, oddballs, or from non-UFP worlds >There are civillian families who CHOOSE to be there. revealing that they really didn't think this through >here is NO reason for a SCIENTIFIC EXPLORATORY SHIP during PEACETIME >to not carry civillians on board. except for the high mortality rate >Now what reasons would you give for people to not have the choice to >travel on an EXPLORATORY ship at a time where the Federation is at >PEACE? > the enterprise has been shot at more during peacetime than it ever does at war, exploration has been shown from C.Pike on to be an extremely hazerduos buisness, entire ships have vanished without a trace, crews lost to viruses, pissed off aliens, their own crappy tech, how is it any safer in peace time, hell Picard agrees with me " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:51:35 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: -------- "Setesh" wrote in message news:20020716023018.07847.00000852@mb-fe.aol.com... > the UFP charter states that starfleet is an "armed peacekeeping force" ie a > military unit, > > >It is a scientific exploratory vessel. > > > > same charter differant article states that > > "Starfleet Headquarters and the Federation Council shall be at all times kept > informed of the activities undertaken, or contemplated, for scientific > exploration and investigation. Any ship so employed shall be detached from > military fleet duty and reassigned as a nonmilitary scientific unit of the > United Federation" > > so starfleet is a MILITARY fleet, ships that are exploring or conducting > research are on detached duty, so they are still a military vessel but are > temporarily reassigned to exploration > What the hell is this crap? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 16 Jul 2002 18:17:00 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020716141700.02188.00000696@mb-fs.aol.com> -------- Darkstar >What the hell is this crap? answer to someone else, you do realize your not the center of the universe right? " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:15:36 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: -------- "Setesh" wrote in message news:20020716141700.02188.00000696@mb-fs.aol.com... > Darkstar > >What the hell is this crap? > > answer to someone else, you do realize your not the center of the universe > right? You realize that crap wasn't canon, right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 17 Jul 2002 19:33:12 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020717153312.10380.00000100@mb-bg.aol.com> -------- yes and I apologized for using it Skywarp:"Starscream, What's Megatron's plan this time? Starscream:"Who cares? You just Know it's going to be evil. And evil is always fun." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:01:42 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <3d343419.526504@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On 16 Jul 2002 06:30:18 GMT, setesh@aol.com (Setesh) wrote: >>And you realise that them using WEAPONS in this DMZ makes them >>TERRORISTS and as they are operating from FEDERATION COLONIES (not the >>CARDASSIAN ONES AS YOU WOULD CLAIM), that makes them FEDERATION >>TERRORISTS. Why is it thus wrong for the FEDERATION to HUNT them DOWN? > >aparently you missed thereason they became terrorist, THE FEDERATION REFUSED TO >HELP THEM, yes most of the Maquis are from the DMZ, its not wrong to hunt them >down its wrong to have let it happen in the first place So it's ok for someone to be a terrorist against a legitimate power if they've had wrong done by them? Do you have any idea how STUPID you are being? Do you punch people every time they wrong you? >>I'll reiterate. > >oh joy > >>The Enterprise is not a military vessel. > >the UFP charter states that starfleet is an "armed peacekeeping force" ie a >military unit, Proof? Where is this from? >>It is a scientific exploratory vessel. >> > >same charter differant article states that > >"Starfleet Headquarters and the Federation Council shall be at all times kept >informed of the activities undertaken, or contemplated, for scientific >exploration and investigation. Any ship so employed shall be detached from >military fleet duty and reassigned as a nonmilitary scientific unit of the >United Federation" Where is this from? Is it canon? Is it official? Is it out of your ass? >so starfleet is a MILITARY fleet, ships that are exploring or conducting >research are on detached duty, so they are still a military vessel but are >temporarily reassigned to exploration No, you pulling quotes out of your arse with nothing to back them up does not constitute proof. >>There are Starfleet personnel on board. > >duh > >>There are civillian scientists on board. > >I have yet to see one, we almost never see scientists who aren't in a starfleet >uniform and virtually all of them are mavericks, oddballs, or from non-UFP >worlds Keiko O'Brien? >>There are civillian families who CHOOSE to be there. > >revealing that they really didn't think this through That's so completely irrelevant. There are civillian families who choose to be there. That is what is relevant. >>here is NO reason for a SCIENTIFIC EXPLORATORY SHIP during PEACETIME >>to not carry civillians on board. > >except for the high mortality rate What's the mortality rate of civillians on SF ships then? Well? >>Now what reasons would you give for people to not have the choice to >>travel on an EXPLORATORY ship at a time where the Federation is at >>PEACE? >> > >the enterprise has been shot at more during peacetime than it ever does at war, When do we see the Enterprise in a wartime situation? The only one I can think of is in TOS in the Organian episode, as soon as they go to war with the Klingons there are many firefights. >exploration has been shown from C.Pike on to be an extremely hazerduos >buisness, entire ships have vanished without a trace, crews lost to viruses, >pissed off aliens, their own crappy tech, how is it any safer in peace time, >hell Picard agrees with me Well, no, he just doesn't like children. You argument is 'space is too hazardous for civillians'. You forget that a lot of these civillians are specialists in various fields themselves. They choose to be on board. IT IS THEIR CHOICE. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 16 Jul 2002 18:15:03 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020716141503.02188.00000694@mb-fs.aol.com> -------- >So it's ok for someone to be a terrorist against a legitimate power if >they've had wrong done by them? >Do you have any idea how STUPID you are being? Do you punch people >every time they wrong you? I'm not defending the Maquis, I think their morons to, I'm attacking the federation who basically left them to die, if their no longer entitled to federation aid and protection why should they have to follow federation laws >>the UFP charter states that starfleet is an "armed peacekeeping force" ie a >>military unit, > >Proof? Where is this from? > > http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/history162/charter.htm I'm still waiting for the webmaster to respond as to its point of origin, the preamble is the one Gene Rod. wrote I am unsure of the rest, if it turns out to be non-canon I shall apologise for using them >>I have yet to see one, we almost never see scientists who aren't in a >starfleet >>uniform and virtually all of them are mavericks, oddballs, or from non-UFP >>worlds > >Keiko O'Brien? is a nurse, was in uniform until she got pregnant, never seen again till DS9 there are no permenant civilians on other ships, only GCS, ACS, and SCS carry them >>There are civillian families who CHOOSE to be there. >> >>revealing that they really didn't think this through >That's so completely irrelevant. > so's his statment, I guess the point went over your head to >There are civillian families who choose to be there. That is what is >relevant. > yup, it did, I'm not arguing that they had no choice I'm arguing that it should never have been an option, you don't put civilians on military vessels, its idiotic, and in a battle situation dangerous, every officer who has family aboard runs the risk of becoming a liability not an asset, especally with the near total lack of discpline >When do we see the Enterprise in a wartime situation? The only one I >can think of is in TOS in the Organian episode, as soon as they go to >war with the Klingons there are many firefights. NG not TOS, I still contend that the goverment has changed, Starfleet certainly has, no Enterprize has been lost during wartime, every enterprize that has been destroyed happened when the federation was at peace >You argument is 'space is too hazardous for civillians'. >You forget that a lot of these civillians are specialists in various >fields themselves. They choose to be on board. IT IS THEIR CHOICE. What 'civilian specilists' the only civilians we see who live on the enterprise who do anything, are the daycare lady, and a school teacher, their never consulted, all research is conducted by those in uniform, as for their choice as I said they shouldn't have the option, " Azrael arose saying, 'and lo, I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jpmwycombe@aol.com (JPMWycombe) Date: 16 Jul 2002 18:20:07 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020716142007.14105.00000149@mb-ms.aol.com> -------- Likely to get lynched however but Wesley Crusher did a lot of stuff on the enterprise even before being put in uniform as an acting ensign. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 17 Jul 2002 04:32:47 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020717003247.03414.00000388@mb-fq.aol.com> -------- >Likely to get lynched however but > Maimed or vivasected maybe, but never lynched >Wesley Crusher did a lot of stuff on the enterprise even before being put in >uniform as an acting ensign. > Wesley is a supposed 'boy genius', they get to play with better toys Skywarp:"Starscream, What's Megatron's plan this time? Starscream:"Who cares? You just Know it's going to be evil. And evil is always fun." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:27:28 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <3d347f42.19770618@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On 16 Jul 2002 18:15:03 GMT, setesh@aol.com (Setesh) wrote: >>So it's ok for someone to be a terrorist against a legitimate power if >>they've had wrong done by them? >>Do you have any idea how STUPID you are being? Do you punch people >>every time they wrong you? > >I'm not defending the Maquis, I think their morons to, I'm attacking the >federation who basically left them to die, if their no longer entitled to >federation aid and protection why should they have to follow federation laws They have to follow Federation laws because they're Federation colonies! It's not rocket science. It may be a bit stinky, but it is THE LAW. >>>the UFP charter states that starfleet is an "armed peacekeeping force" ie a >>>military unit, >> >>Proof? Where is this from? >> >> >http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/history162/charter.htm > >I'm still waiting for the webmaster to respond as to its point of origin, the >preamble is the one Gene Rod. wrote I am unsure of the rest, if it turns out to >be non-canon I shall apologise for using them QUOTE: Sources and Materials My most useful sources: Star Trek Encyclopedia, First, Second, and Third Editions, by Michael and Denise Okuda Star Trek Chronology, Second Edition, by Michael and Denise Okuda Star Trek: Starfleet Technical Manual, by Franz Joseph Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, by Rick Sternbach and Michael Okuda Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual, by Herman Zimmerman and Rich Sternbach and Doug Drexler Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion, by Larry Nemecek Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion, by Terry J. Erdman Quotable Star Trek, by Jill Sherwin The Making of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens A Vision of the Future - Star Trek: Voyager, by Stephen Edward Poe END QUOTE. There is no canon source used in that site at all - only NON CANON, NON OFFICIAL sources. >>>I have yet to see one, we almost never see scientists who aren't in a >>starfleet >>>uniform and virtually all of them are mavericks, oddballs, or from non-UFP >>>worlds >> >>Keiko O'Brien? > >is a nurse, was in uniform until she got pregnant, never seen again till DS9 >there are no permenant civilians on other ships, only GCS, ACS, and SCS carry >them You fuckwit, she's a botanist, not a nurse. She didn't go through SF Academy. She is a civillian. A civillian botanist. On the Ent-D. Understand yet? >>>There are civillian families who CHOOSE to be there. >>> >>>revealing that they really didn't think this through > >>That's so completely irrelevant. >> >so's his statment, I guess the point went over your head to Whose statment, bitchtits? >>There are civillian families who choose to be there. That is what is >>relevant. >> >yup, it did, I'm not arguing that they had no choice I'm arguing that it should >never have been an option, you don't put civilians on military vessels, its >idiotic, and in a battle situation dangerous, every officer who has family >aboard runs the risk of becoming a liability not an asset, especally with the >near total lack of discpline But... IT IS NOT A MILITARY VESSEL. Your only evidence that it is is from a website which uses no canon in it at all. So, I will once more reiterate. What is wrong with having civillians on an exploratory vessel during peacetime. ESPECIALLY on the best armed ship in the fleet, where they're most likely to be safe. Would you rather they went off exploring in crappy little ships with minimal armaments? >>When do we see the Enterprise in a wartime situation? The only one I >>can think of is in TOS in the Organian episode, as soon as they go to >>war with the Klingons there are many firefights. > >NG not TOS, I still contend that the goverment has changed, Starfleet certainly >has, no Enterprize has been lost during wartime, every enterprize that has been >destroyed happened when the federation was at peace Every time an Enterprise has been destroyed there have been no civillian casualties. GOOD EXAMPLE. >>You argument is 'space is too hazardous for civillians'. >>You forget that a lot of these civillians are specialists in various >>fields themselves. They choose to be on board. IT IS THEIR CHOICE. > >What 'civilian specilists' the only civilians we see who live on the enterprise >who do anything, are the daycare lady, and a school teacher, their never >consulted, all research is conducted by those in uniform, >as for their choice as I said they shouldn't have the option, What about the various civillian scientists we see, ffs one of them is a recurring character, Keiko. She's not SF, and had no attachments on the Ent-D before she met Miles. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 17 Jul 2002 04:57:38 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020717005738.03414.00000395@mb-fq.aol.com> -------- >They have to follow Federation laws because they're Federation >colonies! It's not rocket science. It may be a bit stinky, but it is >THE LAW. if the US pulled this there'd be impeacements and likely arrests They cut off a group of colonists, ignore their cries for help to the point that a ranker like Sisko doesn't know their making them till he's told by the maquis themselves, then expect them to quietly sit there and be butchered, thank you for agreeing with my original point , the federation are scum >There is no canon source used in that site at all - only NON CANON, >NON OFFICIAL sources. then sorry my bad > >You fuckwit, she's a botanist, not a nurse. >She didn't go through SF Academy. >She is a civillian. >A civillian botanist. >On the Ent-D. >Understand yet? yet she treated patiants and wore a uniform for a couple seasons, we didn't find out she was a botonist till DS9, Keiko's maiden name is Ogawa, as in NURSE OGAWA, she is still in uniform when she tells Crusher and Data (with the preggers spot) Data even makes a joke when Crusher asks if Mills knows, she IS IN A UNIFORM, AKA NOT A CIVILIAN >Whose statment, bitchtits? > the first one in the quote line >>>>There are civillian families who CHOOSE to be there. Kinda irrelivent when I'm arguing that they shouldn't be givin the choice >But... IT IS NOT A MILITARY VESSEL. Your only evidence that it is is >from a website which uses no canon in it at all. >So, I will once more reiterate. >What is wrong with having civillians on an exploratory vessel during >peacetime. ESPECIALLY on the best armed ship in the fleet, where >they're most likely to be safe. >Would you rather they went off exploring in crappy little ships with >minimal armaments? the quote was the last line of proof not the first, Starfleet uses military ranks, has ships built exclusively for and carries out military duties, as well as the exploritory and scientific duties, and is (supposedly) beholden to civilian authority, him sounds a lot like a military to me. >Every time an Enterprise has been destroyed there have been no >civillian casualties. GOOD EXAMPLE. > except for the Ent-D they were brite enough not to carry any, the Ent-D crew managed to finally use the saucer seperation option for its intended use, to save the civilians they shouldn't have on board in the first place, more to the point what about in 'Best of both worlds' they go strait after the borg, they don't stop and let the 'civies' off they warp up and pick a fight almost as soon as the cube is detected, >What about the various civillian scientists we see, ffs one of them is >a recurring character, Keiko. She's not SF, and had no attachments on >the Ent-D before she met Miles answered Skywarp:"Starscream, What's Megatron's plan this time? Starscream:"Who cares? You just Know it's going to be evil. And evil is always fun." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:04:04 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <3d35cc31.9733503@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On 17 Jul 2002 04:57:38 GMT, setesh@aol.com (Setesh) wrote: >>They have to follow Federation laws because they're Federation >>colonies! It's not rocket science. It may be a bit stinky, but it is >>THE LAW. > >if the US pulled this Irrelevant, the US is a democracy, the UFP is a communist state. > > >>There is no canon source used in that site at all - only NON CANON, >>NON OFFICIAL sources. > >then sorry my bad First of many. > >> >>You fuckwit, she's a botanist, not a nurse. >>She didn't go through SF Academy. >>She is a civillian. >>A civillian botanist. >>On the Ent-D. >>Understand yet? > >yet she treated patiants and wore a uniform for a couple seasons, we didn't >find out she was a botonist till DS9, Keiko's maiden name is Ogawa, as in NURSE >OGAWA, she is still in uniform when she tells Crusher and Data (with the >preggers spot) Data even makes a joke when Crusher asks if Mills knows, she IS >IN A UNIFORM, AKA NOT A CIVILIAN Ok, so now are you claiming there are no civillians on board the Ent-D? That would pander to my point and kick you in the balls... >>Whose statment, bitchtits? >> > >the first one in the quote line One of your non-canon sources? >>>>>There are civillian families who CHOOSE to be there. > >Kinda irrelivent when I'm arguing that they shouldn't be givin the choice You're arguing that the UFP should remove peoples free will? >>But... IT IS NOT A MILITARY VESSEL. Your only evidence that it is is >>from a website which uses no canon in it at all. >>So, I will once more reiterate. >>What is wrong with having civillians on an exploratory vessel during >>peacetime. ESPECIALLY on the best armed ship in the fleet, where >>they're most likely to be safe. >>Would you rather they went off exploring in crappy little ships with >>minimal armaments? > >the quote was the last line of proof not the first, Starfleet uses military >ranks, has ships built exclusively for and carries out military duties, as well >as the exploritory and scientific duties, and is (supposedly) beholden to >civilian authority, him sounds a lot like a military to me. Starfleet is not a military agency, they are an exploratory one. This is the SF charter - To Seek Out New Life and New Civilisations. HEARD THAT BEFORE? SOUND LIKE A MILITARY MANDATE? >>Every time an Enterprise has been destroyed there have been no >>civillian casualties. GOOD EXAMPLE. >> > >except for the Ent-D they were brite enough not to carry any, the Ent-D crew >managed to finally use the saucer seperation option for its intended use, to >save the civilians they shouldn't have on board in the first place, more to the >point what about in 'Best of both worlds' they go strait after the borg, they >don't stop and let the 'civies' off they warp up and pick a fight almost as >soon as the cube is detected, Where have civillians died on a SF ship? Canon example, now. If you can't provide one, your entire argument is shot to fuck. >>What about the various civillian scientists we see, ffs one of them is >>a recurring character, Keiko. She's not SF, and had no attachments on >>the Ent-D before she met Miles > >answered So you're kicking yourself in the teeth - your argument is that civillians shouldn't be allowed on board, yet can't find an example of civillians being aboard, other than children. Should children be forcibly separated from their parents when they could be living in luxury on an exploratory ship during peacetime? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 18 Jul 2002 06:03:43 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020718020343.12948.00000933@mb-me.aol.com> -------- >Irrelevant, the US is a democracy, the UFP is a communist state. okay I agree but my original opponent in this couldn't be convinced, in which case change of example, if in the 80's the USSR pulled this the US would be getting the entire UN involved in protesting such a despicable act >Ok, so now are you claiming there are no civillians on board the >Ent-D? That would pander to my point and kick you in the balls... > no there are civilians we see, the daycare lady in the ep with Troi's mystery kid, the school teacher, a couple others in the ep where Crusher and a bunch of other kids get snatched by the Aldaens, we see several non-uniformed parents, while undoubtedly many of the children have both parents in starfleet some only have one. >>the first one in the quote line > >One of your non-canon sources? > this one baconboy, right below, the one made by my real opponant, sorry I thought the fact it was the first one in that quote line and I posted it right beneath, I thought you might be intelligent enough to notice, my bad. >>>>>>There are civillian families who CHOOSE to be there. >> >>Kinda irrelivent when I'm arguing that they shouldn't be givin the choice > >You're arguing that the UFP should remove peoples free will? since they already have whats the big deal, the whole idea behind federation society requires massive brainwashing to work, >Starfleet is not a military agency, they are an exploratory one. This >is the SF charter - To Seek Out New Life and New Civilisations. HEARD >THAT BEFORE? SOUND LIKE A MILITARY MANDATE? > Thats not the staerfleet charter its the the Starfleet motto, the second half of the quote is the Enterprise flagship motto, fine I will concede, Starfleet is not a military agency. Gratz you just admitted that the UFP has no military, now the New Republic has a much better reason to take over the federation, they are defencless with only armed civilians to protect them. >Where have civillians died on a SF ship? Canon example, now. If you >can't provide one, your entire argument is shot to fuck. > > since we almost never see casualties at all, you want me to provied an example of a civilian one? Good lord do you think I have no life, I'm not going to wade through 900 hours of canon video I don't own to do this. Besides hen they go into battle and Picard gets told the casualty count the just give a number, they don't make a distinction, they never list 'who' it was unless they were A. important B.on an away team, or C related to the bridge crew in some way. >So you're kicking yourself in the teeth - your argument is that >civillians shouldn't be allowed on board, yet can't find an example of >civillians being aboard, other than children. Should children be >forcibly separated from their parents when they could be living in >luxury on an exploratory ship during peacetime? I've conceded that Starfleet is an armed civilian agency. Skywarp:"Starscream, What's Megatron's plan this time? Starscream:"Who cares? You just Know it's going to be evil. And evil is always fun." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:52:21 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <3d36c7a4.11294719@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On 18 Jul 2002 06:03:43 GMT, setesh@aol.com (Setesh) wrote: >this one baconboy, right below, the one made by my real opponant, sorry I >thought the fact it was the first one in that quote line and I posted it right >beneath, I thought you might be intelligent enough to notice, my bad. >>>>>>>There are civillian families who CHOOSE to be there. That was me that said that, who is this 'real opponant' you refer to? >since we almost never see casualties at all, you want me to provied an example >of a civilian one? Good lord do you think I have no life, I'm not going to >wade through 900 hours of canon video I don't own to do this. Inability to back up argument noted. Concession accepted. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 18 Jul 2002 19:43:27 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020718154327.13149.00000320@mb-fq.aol.com> -------- Darkstar mostly and I haven't heard from psycho 2 in a while (the one who didn't believe feds are commies) I noticed you assume consession because unlike you I have a job, the occasional girl in my bed, in short a life. I will watch the episodes as they are rerun when I find one I'll let you know but I'm not going to run out and rent the entire startrek section of the video store. Skywarp:"Starscream, What's Megatron's plan this time? Starscream:"Who cares? You just Know it's going to be evil. And evil is always fun." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:57:41 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <3d372b76.4295846@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On 18 Jul 2002 19:43:27 GMT, setesh@aol.com (Setesh) wrote: >Darkstar mostly and I haven't heard from psycho 2 in a while (the one who >didn't believe feds are commies) I was the one you quoted though, then CLAIMED WAS SOMEONE OTHER THAN ME. >I noticed you assume consession because unlike you I have a job Wrong. >, the occasional girl in my bed, I have a girlfriend, I don't need to get my kicks from 'an occasional girl', I have a stable longterm relationship. > in short a life. That's a pretty pathetic definition of a life. > I will watch the episodes as they are rerun >when I find one I'll let you know but I'm not going to run out and rent the >entire startrek section of the video store. Sooo. Concession accepted. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: setesh@aol.com (Setesh) Date: 19 Jul 2002 05:56:36 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <20020719015636.02178.00000738@mb-mc.aol.com> -------- >I was the one you quoted though, then CLAIMED WAS SOMEONE OTHER THAN >ME. since you where breaking into an existing discussion making the same argument I'm suppose to know which one I quoted? Guy 2 was making the exact same argument I apologise for mistaking you for him when I saw the argument quoted on YOUR post I thought it was his, going back over I see you picked up where he left off after a single post sorry my bad. >>I noticed you assume consession because unlike you I have a job > >Wrong. > >>, the occasional girl in my bed, > >I have a girlfriend, I don't need to get my kicks from 'an occasional >girl', I have a stable longterm relationship. > >> in short a life. > >That's a pretty pathetic definition of a life. I'm not going to list out my entire life for you. > >> I will watch the episodes as they are rerun >>when I find one I'll let you know but I'm not going to run out and rent the >>entire startrek section of the video store. > >Sooo. Concession accepted. > > Because I have neither the time nor patiance to watch that much drivil (NG onwards anyway, TOS is okay), nice to see you have enough time on your hands to do it. But yes I will concede I have no interest in pointing out the obvious. Skywarp:"Starscream, What's Megatron's plan this time? Starscream:"Who cares? You just Know it's going to be evil. And evil is always fun." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:55:00 GMT Subject: Re: Haveing a thought Message-ID: <3d380b27.61569469@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On 19 Jul 2002 05:56:36 GMT, setesh@aol.com (Setesh) wrote: >I'm suppose to know which one I quoted? Curiously yes, you are supposed to know who you're replying to. > > >I'm not going to list out my entire life for you. > I didn't ask you to, bitchtits, your definition of a life and your life are not the same thing, but of course you'd know that with your superior command of the English language:) >>Sooo. Concession accepted. >> >Because I have neither the time nor patiance to watch that much drivil (NG >onwards anyway, TOS is okay), nice to see you have enough time on your hands to >do it. But yes I will concede I have no interest in pointing out the obvious. Well you see, when you make a claim you have to back it up, that's called 'debating'. If you make a claim and can't back it up, for whatever reason/excuse, you concede the debate. Whinging about it won't help. Claiming that you can't win because you're not sad enough is one of the most pathetic claims I have ever heard. For the record, the last ST episode I've seen in the past few months was Broken Bow part 2 last night, I don't spend my time watching ST, contrary to what you might think/hope/fantasise about. So I'll reiterate: Concession accepted.