---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gaernin" Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:02:09 -0700 Subject: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- What are the speed of TL bolts? ST ships seem a bit more manueverable and would be able to dodge the relatively slow TL bolts... ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 10:28:02 GMT Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- "Gaernin" wrote in message news:undst1mnjs6194@corp.supernews.com... > What are the speed of TL bolts? Quite variable. The fastest ones I'm aware of offhand were seen in TPM, when the TF battleships were firing on Padme's Royal Yacht from about 60 klicks. The bolts appeared to arrive in way under a second. > ST ships seem a bit more manueverable and would be able to dodge the relatively slow TL bolts... On the slower settings and at longer ranges, I'd say so, provided you're talking about more maneuverable ships like the Defiant. Bear in mind, however, that the Star Wars non-canon suggests that there is an invisible component to turbolasers which moves at lightspeed. Thus, anything within 300,000km (one light-second) could theoretically be targeted reliably. However, there are no canon examples of SW weapons being fired at such ranges. The observed canon maximum is around 100 kilometers. http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 20:30:24 -0400 Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:SkGd9.311742$Aw4.13028774@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Gaernin" wrote in message > news:undst1mnjs6194@corp.supernews.com... > > What are the speed of TL bolts? > > Quite variable. The fastest ones I'm aware of offhand were seen in TPM, > when the TF battleships were firing on Padme's Royal Yacht from about 60 > klicks. The bolts appeared to arrive in way under a second. > > > ST ships seem a bit more manueverable and would be able to dodge the > relatively slow TL bolts... > > On the slower settings and at longer ranges, I'd say so, provided you're > talking about more maneuverable ships like the Defiant. Bear in mind, > however, that the Star Wars non-canon suggests that there is an invisible > component to turbolasers which moves at lightspeed. Thus, anything within > 300,000km (one light-second) could theoretically be targeted reliably. > However, there are no canon examples of SW weapons being fired at such > ranges. The observed canon maximum is around 100 kilometers. > > http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html > Yet a stated capability (by Imperial officers) is the ability to conduct planetary bombardment which requires ranges into several hundred and perhaps several thousand kilometers. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) "I'm a genocidal maniac, hold me." -Anakin Vader ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 06:58:11 GMT Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: <7mYd9.469752$2p2.18605462@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:al8sur$1o505o$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:SkGd9.311742$Aw4.13028774@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > "Gaernin" wrote in message > > news:undst1mnjs6194@corp.supernews.com... > > > What are the speed of TL bolts? > > > > Quite variable. The fastest ones I'm aware of offhand were seen in TPM, > > when the TF battleships were firing on Padme's Royal Yacht from about 60 > > klicks. The bolts appeared to arrive in way under a second. > > > > > ST ships seem a bit more manueverable and would be able to dodge the > > relatively slow TL bolts... > > > > On the slower settings and at longer ranges, I'd say so, provided you're > > talking about more maneuverable ships like the Defiant. Bear in mind, > > however, that the Star Wars non-canon suggests that there is an invisible > > component to turbolasers which moves at lightspeed. Thus, anything > within > > 300,000km (one light-second) could theoretically be targeted reliably. > > However, there are no canon examples of SW weapons being fired at such > > ranges. The observed canon maximum is around 100 kilometers. > > > > http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html > > > > Yet a stated capability (by Imperial officers) is the ability to conduct > planetary bombardment which requires ranges into several hundred and perhaps > several thousand kilometers. Quite true, but he was asking about ship examples. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "His Divine Shadow" Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:22:05 +0300 Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:al8sur$1o505o$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:SkGd9.311742$Aw4.13028774@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > "Gaernin" wrote in message > > news:undst1mnjs6194@corp.supernews.com... > > > What are the speed of TL bolts? > > > > Quite variable. The fastest ones I'm aware of offhand were seen in TPM, > > when the TF battleships were firing on Padme's Royal Yacht from about 60 > > klicks. The bolts appeared to arrive in way under a second. > > > > > ST ships seem a bit more manueverable and would be able to dodge the > > relatively slow TL bolts... > > > > On the slower settings and at longer ranges, I'd say so, provided you're > > talking about more maneuverable ships like the Defiant. Bear in mind, > > however, that the Star Wars non-canon suggests that there is an invisible > > component to turbolasers which moves at lightspeed. Thus, anything > within > > 300,000km (one light-second) could theoretically be targeted reliably. > > However, there are no canon examples of SW weapons being fired at such > > ranges. The observed canon maximum is around 100 kilometers. > > > > http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html > > > > Yet a stated capability (by Imperial officers) is the ability to conduct > planetary bombardment which requires ranges into several hundred and perhaps > several thousand kilometers. Infact, in rebel stand the Lusankya bombarded an area with multiple shots in a few minutes from geo-synch orbit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "His Divine Shadow" Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:23:08 +0300 Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- "His Divine Shadow" wrote in message news:yJYd9.52$gj7.7993@read2.inet.fi... > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:al8sur$1o505o$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > news:SkGd9.311742$Aw4.13028774@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > > > "Gaernin" wrote in message > > > news:undst1mnjs6194@corp.supernews.com... > > > > What are the speed of TL bolts? > > > > > > Quite variable. The fastest ones I'm aware of offhand were seen in > TPM, > > > when the TF battleships were firing on Padme's Royal Yacht from about 60 > > > klicks. The bolts appeared to arrive in way under a second. > > > > > > > ST ships seem a bit more manueverable and would be able to dodge the > > > relatively slow TL bolts... > > > > > > On the slower settings and at longer ranges, I'd say so, provided you're > > > talking about more maneuverable ships like the Defiant. Bear in mind, > > > however, that the Star Wars non-canon suggests that there is an > invisible > > > component to turbolasers which moves at lightspeed. Thus, anything > > within > > > 300,000km (one light-second) could theoretically be targeted reliably. > > > However, there are no canon examples of SW weapons being fired at such > > > ranges. The observed canon maximum is around 100 kilometers. > > > > > > http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html > > > > > > > Yet a stated capability (by Imperial officers) is the ability to conduct > > planetary bombardment which requires ranges into several hundred and > perhaps > > several thousand kilometers. > > Infact, in rebel stand the Lusankya bombarded an area with multiple shots in > a few minutes from geo-synch orbit. Also what comes to mind is when the Chimaera fired a lowpowered blast at the Noghri planet in Dark Force Rising, it took no more than a second tops. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 19:09:42 -0400 Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- "His Divine Shadow" wrote in message news:wKYd9.53$gj7.7843@read2.inet.fi... > > "His Divine Shadow" wrote in message > news:yJYd9.52$gj7.7993@read2.inet.fi... > > > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > > news:al8sur$1o505o$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > > news:SkGd9.311742$Aw4.13028774@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > > > > > "Gaernin" wrote in message > > > > news:undst1mnjs6194@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > What are the speed of TL bolts? > > > > > > > > Quite variable. The fastest ones I'm aware of offhand were seen in > > TPM, > > > > when the TF battleships were firing on Padme's Royal Yacht from about > 60 > > > > klicks. The bolts appeared to arrive in way under a second. > > > > > > > > > ST ships seem a bit more manueverable and would be able to dodge the > > > > relatively slow TL bolts... > > > > > > > > On the slower settings and at longer ranges, I'd say so, provided > you're > > > > talking about more maneuverable ships like the Defiant. Bear in > mind, > > > > however, that the Star Wars non-canon suggests that there is an > > invisible > > > > component to turbolasers which moves at lightspeed. Thus, anything > > > within > > > > 300,000km (one light-second) could theoretically be targeted reliably. > > > > However, there are no canon examples of SW weapons being fired at such > > > > ranges. The observed canon maximum is around 100 kilometers. > > > > > > > > http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html > > > > > > > > > > Yet a stated capability (by Imperial officers) is the ability to conduct > > > planetary bombardment which requires ranges into several hundred and > > perhaps > > > several thousand kilometers. > > > > Infact, in rebel stand the Lusankya bombarded an area with multiple shots > in > > a few minutes from geo-synch orbit. > > Also what comes to mind is when the Chimaera fired a lowpowered blast at the > Noghri planet in Dark Force Rising, it took no more than a second tops. > Yes but sicne I was talking to DarkStar I thought I'd remind him of Canon only evidence first. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) "I'm a genocidal maniac, hold me." -Anakin Vader ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iceberg Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 19:32:31 -0500 Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- On Thu, 05 Sep 2002 10:28:02 GMT, "DarkStar" wrote: > >"Gaernin" wrote in message >news:undst1mnjs6194@corp.supernews.com... >> What are the speed of TL bolts? > >Quite variable. The fastest ones I'm aware of offhand were seen in TPM, >when the TF battleships were firing on Padme's Royal Yacht from about 60 >klicks. The bolts appeared to arrive in way under a second. > >> ST ships seem a bit more manueverable and would be able to dodge the >relatively slow TL bolts... > >On the slower settings and at longer ranges, I'd say so, provided you're >talking about more maneuverable ships like the Defiant. Bear in mind, >however, that the Star Wars non-canon suggests that there is an invisible >component to turbolasers which moves at lightspeed. Thus, anything within >300,000km (one light-second) could theoretically be targeted reliably. >However, there are no canon examples of SW weapons being fired at such >ranges. The observed canon maximum is around 100 kilometers. > >http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html Significantly greater than that. I am working on ways to determine the true range of the opening gunfight between the Rebel and Imperial fleets in Return of the Jedi through use of the Pythagorean Theorem and scaling, but indicators suggest that the range of the initial engagement was at least thousands and possibly tens of thousands of kilometers. -- Ice "How should I know? I'M A FUCKING CATFISH!" - Standard Mon Cal response to any crisis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 07:04:22 GMT Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- "Iceberg" wrote in message news:hotfnu0qik2dligvfajfts2kgbr9eu8ov4@4ax.com... > On Thu, 05 Sep 2002 10:28:02 GMT, "DarkStar" > wrote: > > I am working on ways to determine > the true range of the opening gunfight between the Rebel and Imperial > fleets in Return of the Jedi through use of the Pythagorean Theorem > and scaling, There's a way to do it that sounds far easier than what you're whipping out, and you don't have to worry about zooming effects. http://visearth.ucsd.edu:16080/VisE_teach/SpaceMath/geosimilartri1.html FYI, the first three Star Wars movies effects sequences were shot on 35mm Vista Vision, then transferred to regular 35mm. I researched that a couple of months ago when looking for a reasonably reliable scaling method. In short, 35mm will suffice whichever way you go for the distance-to-lens feature. I'm not sure what the prequels are being filmed in, so far, hence my ballpark estimate (using the technique) of 60 kilometers for the TPM sequence. It seems to fit with eyeball estimation, so I'm keeping it, provisionally. > but indicators suggest that the range of the initial > engagement was at least thousands and possibly tens of thousands of > kilometers. Er . . . what scene? Got a screenshot to share? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iceberg the Dancing Black Mage Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 06:29:58 -0500 Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- On Fri, 06 Sep 2002 07:04:22 GMT, "DarkStar" wrote: > >"Iceberg" wrote in message >news:hotfnu0qik2dligvfajfts2kgbr9eu8ov4@4ax.com... >> On Thu, 05 Sep 2002 10:28:02 GMT, "DarkStar" >> wrote: >> >> I am working on ways to determine >> the true range of the opening gunfight between the Rebel and Imperial >> fleets in Return of the Jedi through use of the Pythagorean Theorem >> and scaling, > >There's a way to do it that sounds far easier than what you're whipping out, >and you don't have to worry about zooming effects. > >http://visearth.ucsd.edu:16080/VisE_teach/SpaceMath/geosimilartri1.html > >FYI, the first three Star Wars movies effects sequences were shot on 35mm >Vista Vision, then transferred to regular 35mm. I researched that a couple >of months ago when looking for a reasonably reliable scaling method. In >short, 35mm will suffice whichever way you go for the distance-to-lens >feature. > >I'm not sure what the prequels are being filmed in, so far, hence my >ballpark estimate (using the technique) of 60 kilometers for the TPM >sequence. It seems to fit with eyeball estimation, so I'm keeping it, >provisionally. > >> but indicators suggest that the range of the initial >> engagement was at least thousands and possibly tens of thousands of >> kilometers. > >Er . . . what scene? Got a screenshot to share? I'm voting for tens of thousands, BTW... Anyway, if you recall, the Imperials rounded Endor and moved into attack formation. The Imperials, the Rebels and the Death Star formed roughly a right triangle with the Imperials forming up past the planet and the Rebels forming up with the forest moon and the Death Star between them and the Imperials. Now, it's a definite that the Imperial fleet's attack position is several planetary diameters beyond Endor because Endor isn't even *in* the matte painting of the Imperial fleet (seen from the Emperor's overbridge/throne room). Endor's diameter MUST be around 10,000-12,000 km, because it's a life-bearing world, with all that entails (including Earth-normal or close to Earth-normal gravity). Endor Rebel Fleet Imperial Fleet Death Star So what we have here is a scaling error - the Imperial warships shouldn't even be visible to the naked eye (either from the Rebel ships or the Death Star) at their range. Not even the mighty Executor. On the other hand, Star Trek has far more numerous and better documented scaling errors, so that's hardly a problem. -- Ice "How should I know? I'M A FUCKING CATFISH!" - Standard Mon Cal response to any crisis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:27:09 GMT Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: <1X2e9.460672$m91.17899852@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> -------- "Iceberg the Dancing Black Mage" wrote in message news:kr3hnu0sq9dlgb1rciqd3hf5rb14amsp9m@4ax.com... > Now, it's a definite that the Imperial fleet's attack position is > several planetary diameters beyond Endor because Endor isn't even *in* > the matte painting of the Imperial fleet (seen from the Emperor's > overbridge/throne room). What? Why does that show they are beyond Endor, as opposed to on the same side as everyone else, with Endor out of view? > > Endor's diameter MUST be around 10,000-12,000 km, because it's a > life-bearing world, with all that entails (including Earth-normal or > close to Earth-normal gravity). > > > Endor > > Rebel Fleet Imperial Fleet > Death Star Um, no . . . see, when the superlaser is fired against the Rebel ships, it is clear that this is the case: ------------- Endor --------------- Death Star Rebel Fleet This means there is plenty of room in the shot for the Imperial Fleet to be here: ------------ Endor ------------- Imp Fleet Death Star Rebel Fleet . . . without Endor showing up in Palpatine's window. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iceberg the Dancing Black Mage Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 13:13:07 -0500 Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- On Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:27:09 GMT, "DarkStar" wrote: > >"Iceberg the Dancing Black Mage" wrote in message >news:kr3hnu0sq9dlgb1rciqd3hf5rb14amsp9m@4ax.com... > >> Now, it's a definite that the Imperial fleet's attack position is >> several planetary diameters beyond Endor because Endor isn't even *in* >> the matte painting of the Imperial fleet (seen from the Emperor's >> overbridge/throne room). > >What? Why does that show they are beyond Endor, as opposed to on the same >side as everyone else, with Endor out of view? > >> >> Endor's diameter MUST be around 10,000-12,000 km, because it's a >> life-bearing world, with all that entails (including Earth-normal or >> close to Earth-normal gravity). >> >> >> Endor >> >> Rebel Fleet Imperial Fleet >> Death Star > >Um, no . . . see, when the superlaser is fired against the Rebel ships, it >is clear that this is the case: > ------------- > Endor >--------------- > > Death Star Rebel Fleet >This means there is plenty of room in the shot for the Imperial Fleet to be >here: > > ------------ > Endor >------------- > Imp Fleet > Death Star Rebel Fleet > > . . . without Endor showing up in Palpatine's window. The Reb fleet is clearly not virtually on top of the Imperial fleet - they are not even in the matte painting. The matte painting in Palpatine's window only portrays the Imperial fleet - the Rebels are out of the frame to stage left. -- Ice "How should I know? I'M A FUCKING CATFISH!" - Standard Mon Cal response to any crisis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lord Edam de Fromage <$mike$@trek-wars.info> Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 20:47:40 +0100 Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- In article , iceberg@crius.net says... > The Reb fleet is clearly not virtually on top of the Imperial fleet - > they are not even in the matte painting. > > The matte painting in Palpatine's window only portrays the Imperial > fleet - the Rebels are out of the frame to stage left. You could barely see the imperial ships, with most of them being nothing more than bright blobs that you knew were ships because they flashed occasionally. the rebel fleet would be similarly impossible to recognise blobs at the far left of the window. -- Lord Edam de Fromage AIM: Sorborus www.trek-wars.info Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chris O'Farrell" Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 09:16:32 +1000 Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: <3d79374f$0$29907$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> -------- "Lord Edam de Fromage" <$mike$@trek-wars.info> wrote in message news:MPG.17e316b9328405c99896da@news.cis.dfn.de... > In article , > iceberg@crius.net says... > > > The Reb fleet is clearly not virtually on top of the Imperial fleet - > > they are not even in the matte painting. > > > > The matte painting in Palpatine's window only portrays the Imperial > > fleet - the Rebels are out of the frame to stage left. > > You could barely see the imperial ships, with most of them being nothing > more than bright blobs that you knew were ships because they flashed > occasionally. the rebel fleet would be similarly impossible to recognise > blobs at the far left of the window. > I was always under the impresion that the 'window' was a viewscreen. Its the only way to reconcial the orientation of the Imperial fleet to the window. From the window they are side on, when they are truth actualy head on to the DS. The only other alternitive is that every time Luke was about to look out the window, the fleet re-oriented, then moved back again when he stoped..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:41:21 -0700 Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- "Chris O'Farrell" wrote > I was always under the impresion that the 'window' was a viewscreen. Its the > only way to reconcial the orientation of the Imperial fleet to the window. > From the window they are side on, when they are truth actualy head on to the > DS. The only other alternitive is that every time Luke was about to look out > the window, the fleet re-oriented, then moved back again when he stoped..... I'll be goddamned, Chris, have you said something plausible? ;) There's another little mystery about that scene. In the novelization, we know that the Emperor ordered the DS2 to turn and fire on Endor. Yet, in his big window in the movie, we see no evidence of this rotation. However, we DO see the stars moving in a window behind Vader as he watches Luke get his ball electrolicized. You've just got to ignore the fact that the Ds2 would be destroying its own protective shield, and be asked to withstand the planetary blast of Endor WITHOUT one. That and it was half completed.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 15:47:32 -0400 Subject: Re: ST manueverability vs SW TLs Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:unki2jp83llgd6@corp.supernews.com... > > "Chris O'Farrell" wrote > > > I was always under the impresion that the 'window' was a viewscreen. Its > the > > only way to reconcial the orientation of the Imperial fleet to the window. > > From the window they are side on, when they are truth actualy head on to > the > > DS. The only other alternitive is that every time Luke was about to look > out > > the window, the fleet re-oriented, then moved back again when he > stoped..... > > I'll be goddamned, Chris, have you said something plausible? ;) > > There's another little mystery about that scene. In the novelization, we > know that the Emperor ordered the DS2 to turn and fire on Endor. Yet, in his > big window in the movie, we see no evidence of this rotation. However, we DO > see the stars moving in a window behind Vader as he watches Luke get his > ball electrolicized. > > You've just got to ignore the fact that the Ds2 would be destroying its own > protective shield, and be asked to withstand the planetary blast of Endor > WITHOUT one. That and it was half completed.... > Remember that in both the novelisation and the movie the shield was ALREADY down. Luke doesn't get eltectro-sized until after Lando does his "Red group green group all fighters..." line and the attack on the Death Star begins. In the novelisation the DS doesn't begin rotation until after they are in the tunnel and IIRC Ackbar informs Lando that the DS is rotating and will be in firing position within the next minute or so. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) "I'm a genocidal maniac, hold me." -Anakin Vader