---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WeeMadAndo" Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:31:04 +1000 Subject: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- First of all, don't flame these, I'm being intentionally Trek biased (at times) for the purpose of debate. Sure all these points have been made before but: 1) What do the Federation rifles fire? Worf refers to them as "particle" weapons. This infers KE. And the borg adapted. Granted the KE may only have been a minute part of the weapon, but... 2) Time travel paradox. Technobabble solved the problem of why the Ent-E was still there, but why were the borg there? Assuming that the Ent-E's vision of the future (before they passed through the vortex) was correct then the Borg would have killed and/or enslaved Cochrane. Thus, no Federation, no Enterprise, no Q, no trip to Borg space, thus the Borg remain ignorant of earth and never set out to conquer it. Thus the earth is still fine and the Federation exist and the Enterprise exist and Q sends the Ent out to borg space and ARGH! 3) The Borg are fucking stupid. "They won't attack us until they view us as a threat." Yet we are walking towards the heart of the hive and are all armed. 4) Quantum torpedoes move fucking fast. They were closing (albeit not THAT quickly) on the Phoenix which was going at 20,000km per second. 5) The Borg are fucking stupid. You have 3 people messing around at the magnetic locks and you do what? Nothing. Until just one lock remains. 6) KE weapons (if employed) would decimate a borg cube, which would appear to be mainly empty space on the inside. Remember what a couple of logs did to an AT-ST? 7) ST sensors really are shit. A Romulan survey vessel (which one would assume would have pretty damn good sensors) couldn't detect 6(?) people beaming up no more than 30 meteres away? And the moon blocked the "warp signature" of a ship doing a "trans-time" jump? Note that this is made even more amusing by the fact that people on the ground can look up and see the Enterprise jumping. Where was the moon? ST sensors really are shit. 8) The borg are fucking stupid. Despite all their advanced tech on TWO occasions they are distracted and even "tricked" by holograms. 9) Data is a weak as piss little shit. Where was his vaunted strength and reflexes when he was pulled under a half open door (which even a 6 year old could, and would have grabbed onto for leverage) by a drone. Which from previous scenes we know that he is (allegedly) much stronger than. 10) The borgs "adaption" to hand weapons wears off over time? How else can you explain them adapting to the weapons after 11 or 12 shots (from both hand phasers and the rifles), then less than 5 minuts later two are pinged by the same rifle. And don't say modulating frequencies. Worf rigged them with that to start with and STILL said it would only give them 12 shots before they adapted. So either the collective isn't THAT much of a whole that 2 drones didn't get the message about adapting or the adaption wore off - or people remodded their rifles in the middle of an intense retreat complete with CQB. 11) Picard is a stupid moron. Replace him with any captain from Homeworld who's had to deal with the beast. I mean, the Saucer section (which we know is self survivable) wasn't infected by the borg (VFX, we see him pointing to a section on a schematic), so why not piss-off in that while detonating the warp core. 12) The borg are fucking stupid. They have a worse control structure than the Ep1 battle-droids. Note that even the borg not affected by the "plasma coolant" appear to short-out and die when the queen does. What happened to the hive being able to survive any conditions? 13) ST is shite (sorry, but...). A borg cube burns and explodes with a green flame. This indicates REALLY high levels of methane and other gasses. Yet back in ST:TNG they can still happily walk around on board one without any atmospheric gear? 14) The borg are fucking shite, and the crew of the Enterprise are fucking stupid. A holographic bullet can (if I understand correctly, a hologram with a forcefield to produce tactile sensation) kill them. Why don't the crew rig some "force-field" weapons that work on a similar principle? 15) ST vessels do actually maneuvre in combat. But it wouldn't appear to do them any good. I personally think that a consolidated "flying wall" tactic (that we see everywhere but this one battle) would have been better agains the borg. Oh, and why didn't anyone warp-strafe? Wasn't the E-E capable? 16) I can't believe I just wasted a valuable slot in my DVD rental schedule with this. -- WeeMadAndo Blue sparks and white smoke, the two most expensive components of any electrical system. Once you've used them, it costs a fortune to replace them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:53:41 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3d87ce94_1@news.cybersurf.net> -------- "The Baron" wrote in message news:3d87c627.9144548@news.freeserve.co.uk... > > You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, > especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. > What is relevant is that they DO do it. > If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by any, every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) without ever adapting. So what if they can supposedly adapt to a phaser side-effect? We've seen the upper limit to Borg KE adaptation, and its not impressive. > >-Uh, despite all the Borg stuff lying around, the Vulcans clearly never > >pursued it given that the Borg were "new"ly discovered centuries later. > > What Borg stuff lying around? The QTorps destroyed the Sphere, most > likely down to a level the 300 years inferior Vulcan sensors couldn't > detect. > Dead Borg and Borg parts from the battle on the exterior of the Enterprise. Borg weapons signatures metres away from the Vulcan landing ship. > > The only explanation then is that they weren't concerned because it > was beyond the primitive Vulcan tech's ability to detect. > Agreed. > > > > You fail to understand the point. > > I am not in any way trying to prove that the Vulcan sensors were any > good. > I am simply saying that to see those sensors and claim that all ST > sensors are hence shit is the HEIGHT OF STUPIDITY. When did I imply that? I suggested that Vulcan sensors were even crappier than you stated. _You_ claimed that "ST sensors are shit." I was, however, referring to the Vulcan sensors in all of my claims, and did not extend that claim to the E-E's sensors. -=Doomriser "We've been very careful. The continuity is airtight. Believe me. We know. We know." -Brannon Braga ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 03:58:22 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Doomriser" wrote in message news:3d87ce94_1@news.cybersurf.net... > "The Baron" wrote in message > news:3d87c627.9144548@news.freeserve.co.uk... > > > > You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, > > especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. > > What is relevant is that they DO do it. > > > > If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by any, > every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 02:15:22 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:yRSh9.114831$5r1.4475183@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Doomriser" wrote in message > news:3d87ce94_1@news.cybersurf.net... > > "The Baron" wrote in message > > news:3d87c627.9144548@news.freeserve.co.uk... > > > > > > You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, > > > especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. > > > What is relevant is that they DO do it. > > > > > > > If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by any, > > every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) > > We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. > http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html > Yes but we HAVE seen them killed by knives. Additionally we know that holodecks can replicate matter so with the safeties turned off there is a very realistic belief that real bullets were fired. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) "I'm a genocidal maniac, hold me." -Anakin Vader ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:48:42 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <_ZXh9.113464$AR1.4617946@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:am95l5$2qeag$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:yRSh9.114831$5r1.4475183@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > "Doomriser" wrote in message > > news:3d87ce94_1@news.cybersurf.net... > > > "The Baron" wrote in message > > > news:3d87c627.9144548@news.freeserve.co.uk... > > > > > > > > You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, > > > > especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. > > > > What is relevant is that they DO do it. > > > > > > > > > > If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by > any, > > > every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) > > > > We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. > > http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html > > > > Yes but we HAVE seen them killed by knives. Did I suggest otherwise? No. > Additionally we know that > holodecks can replicate matter so with the safeties turned off there is a > very realistic belief that real bullets were fired. That does not follow based on known holodeck behavior, and is contrary to canon statements. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:23:21 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:_ZXh9.113464$AR1.4617946@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:am95l5$2qeag$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > news:yRSh9.114831$5r1.4475183@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > > > "Doomriser" wrote in message > > > news:3d87ce94_1@news.cybersurf.net... > > > > "The Baron" wrote in message > > > > news:3d87c627.9144548@news.freeserve.co.uk... > > > > > > > > > > You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, > > > > > especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. > > > > > What is relevant is that they DO do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by > > any, > > > > every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) > > > > > > We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. > > > http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html > > > > > > > Yes but we HAVE seen them killed by knives. > > Did I suggest otherwise? No. Did I suggest that you suggested otherwise? > > Additionally we know that > > holodecks can replicate matter so with the safeties turned off there is a > > very realistic belief that real bullets were fired. > > That does not follow based on known holodeck behavior, and is contrary to > canon statements. > False, we've seen snowballs from the holodeck leave the holodeck area and interact with people outside, in fact the snow fell to the floor and started to melt which indicates that the matter was replicated. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) "I'm a genocidal maniac, hold me." -Anakin Vader ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lord Edam de Fromage <$mike$@trek-wars.info> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:15:43 +0100 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- In article , burnettr@comcast.net says... > False, we've seen snowballs from the holodeck leave the holodeck area and > interact with people outside, in fact the snow fell to the floor and started > to melt which indicates that the matter was replicated. Actually, all that indicates is that the effects of the holodeck extend a short distance from the holodeck - as we see when Leech & Block leave the holodeck in The Big Goodbye -- Lord Edam de Fromage AIM: Sorborus www.trek-wars.info I am the mariner who navigated seas celestial astronaut ambassador sent to foreign shores terrestrial ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:25:03 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D881C07.7060707@shaw.ca> -------- DarkStar wrote: > "Doomriser" wrote: >>"The Baron" wrote: >>>You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, >>>especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. >>>What is relevant is that they DO do it. >> >>If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by any, >>every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) > > We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. > http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:50:40 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote in message news:3D881C07.7060707@shaw.ca... > DarkStar wrote: > > "Doomriser" wrote: > >>"The Baron" wrote: > > >>>You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, > >>>especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. > >>>What is relevant is that they DO do it. > >> > >>If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by any, > >>every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) > > > > We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. > > http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html > > Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by > tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. Your position is contrary to canon fact, and based on a foolish assumption. In the absence of any other data but Wesley staying wet, I could possibly agree . . . however, we have multiple examples of objects not surviving holodeck exit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:06:10 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D88A43D.4060701@shaw.ca> -------- DarkStar wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>DarkStar wrote: >>>>>You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, >>>>>especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. >>>>>What is relevant is that they DO do it. >>>> >>>>If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by >>>>any, every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) >>> >>>We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. >>>http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html >> >>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by >>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. > > Your position is contrary to canon fact, and based on a foolish assumption. > In the absence of any other data but Wesley staying wet, I could possibly > agree . . . however, we have multiple examples of objects not surviving > holodeck exit. Two points: 1.) Wesley is not the only example, it's just the one that sticks in my head. 2.) How many objects left the holodeck while in contact with real material? Everything in the holodeck is an illusion till someone needs to interact with it. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:04:53 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote in message news:3D88A43D.4060701@shaw.ca... > Everything in the holodeck is an illusion till someone needs > to interact with it. The assumption that all interaction equals reality is not supported in the canon. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:01:59 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D8905EA.5060200@shaw.ca> -------- DarkStar wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >> Everything in the holodeck is an illusion till someone needs >> to interact with it. > > The assumption that all interaction equals reality is not supported in the > canon. Really? I've given direct evidence to support that claim. Where's your counter-evidence? C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:59:07 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote in message news:3D8905EA.5060200@shaw.ca... > DarkStar wrote: > > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > >> Everything in the holodeck is an illusion till someone needs > >> to interact with it. > > > > The assumption that all interaction equals reality is not supported in the > > canon. > > Really? I've given direct evidence to support that claim. Where's your > counter-evidence? Previously given. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:42:18 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D89398A.F92BEC45@daltonator.net> -------- DarkStar wrote: > > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote in message > news:3D8905EA.5060200@shaw.ca... > > DarkStar wrote: > > > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > > > >> Everything in the holodeck is an illusion till someone needs > > >> to interact with it. > > > > > > The assumption that all interaction equals reality is not supported in > the > > > canon. > > > > Really? I've given direct evidence to support that claim. Where's your > > counter-evidence? > > Previously given. Yeah, Strow, you lazy fuck. Go find the evidence yourself. We don't have to resupply it for you. -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:53:25 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D8A0F22.7050103@shaw.ca> -------- Dalton wrote: > DarkStar wrote: >>>Really? I've given direct evidence to support that claim. Where's your >>>counter-evidence? >> >>Previously given. > > Yeah, Strow, you lazy fuck. Go find the evidence yourself. We don't have > to resupply it for you. I know, I know. My whole debating career has been a fraud. I am such a naughty boy. Somebody spank me. (Where is Raven when you need her?) C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:24:13 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:Lbai9.22397$216.994709@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote in message > news:3D8905EA.5060200@shaw.ca... > > DarkStar wrote: > > > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > > > >> Everything in the holodeck is an illusion till someone needs > > >> to interact with it. > > > > > > The assumption that all interaction equals reality is not supported in > the > > > canon. > > > > Really? I've given direct evidence to support that claim. Where's your > > counter-evidence? > > Previously given. > You gave no examples, you just said there were "many examples." You didn't actually give any. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) "I'm a genocidal maniac, hold me." -Anakin Vader ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:08:35 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D8A12AF.1020504@shaw.ca> -------- Cmdrwilkens wrote: > "DarkStar" wrote: >>"C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>>Really? I've given direct evidence to support that claim. Where's your >>>counter-evidence? >> >>Previously given. > > You gave no examples, you just said there were "many examples." You didn't > actually give any. Bu according to Darkstar that's enough. And who are we to disagree with Darkstar? C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedmanonions@hotmail.com (Ted Archbold) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:35:20 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3d8a510c.1866362@news.cis.dfn.de> -------- On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:08:35 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >Cmdrwilkens wrote: >> "DarkStar" wrote: >>>"C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > >>>>Really? I've given direct evidence to support that claim. Where's your >>>>counter-evidence? >>> >>>Previously given. >> >> You gave no examples, you just said there were "many examples." You didn't >> actually give any. > >Bu according to Darkstar that's enough. And who are we to disagree with >Darkstar? We are not Wong, we do not have the strength needed to withstand such shite as DarkStar. AIM: FldMrslTed ICQ: 125211976 MSN: tedmanonions@hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lord Edam de Fromage <$mike$@trek-wars.info> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:15:44 +0100 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- In article , burnettr@comcast.net says... > > > >> Everything in the holodeck is an illusion till someone needs > > > >> to interact with it. > > > > > > > > The assumption that all interaction equals reality is not supported in > > the > > > > canon. > > > > > > Really? I've given direct evidence to support that claim. Where's your > > > counter-evidence? > > > > Previously given. > > > > You gave no examples, you just said there were "many examples." You didn't > actually give any. real people on the holodeck can and do interact with holodeck people on the holodeck. it has been demonstrated that holodeck people from the holodeck can exist outside the holodeck, in much the same way as the snowball that hit Picard existed outside the holodeck (ref. The Big Goodbye) By the logic shown so far in this discussion, it is therefor possible for the holodeck to create real people that will exist outside the holodeck. Of course, we know this is not the case (the Moriarty problem, The Big Goodbye) from that voy ep that wasn't fair haven but was about fair haven and ENT:Unexpected, we know the characters & objects on the holodeck that people interact with are simply "hard photons" or "resequenced photons". It is likely that all interactions that are contained within the holodeck are such phenomena, and that the conversion into real matter only happens as the objects approach leaving the holodeck, such that once they extend beyond the effects of the holodeck they are either reclaimed (in the case of things that cannot be replicated - see The Big Goodbye) or converted (in the case of simple, easy to replicate objects - see books & snowballs). this means the borg were not hit by real bullets, but by hard photons deisgned to act on physical objects as hard photons would. How the would affect shielding (or more accurately, how Borg KE shielding would affect them) is unknown. -- Lord Edam de Fromage AIM: Sorborus www.trek-wars.info I am the mariner who navigated seas celestial astronaut ambassador sent to foreign shores terrestrial ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:12:59 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D897902.7060904@shaw.ca> -------- DarkStar wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>DarkStar wrote: >>>>Everything in the holodeck is an illusion till someone needs >>>>to interact with it. >>> >>>The assumption that all interaction equals reality is not supported in >>>the canon. >> >>Really? I've given direct evidence to support that claim. Where's your >>counter-evidence? > > Previously given. No, no evidence was given. You just claimed there was evidence, but you never gave specific examples. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:16:03 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3d890921.91839348@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:25:03 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >DarkStar wrote: >> "Doomriser" wrote: >>>"The Baron" wrote: > >>>>You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, >>>>especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. >>>>What is relevant is that they DO do it. >>> >>>If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by any, >>>every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) >> >> We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. >> http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html > >Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by >tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. > Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been destroyed? Oh wait, no. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 18 Sep 2002 23:37:49 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <20020918193749.05505.00005260@mb-fc.aol.com> -------- >On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:25:03 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" > wrote: > >>DarkStar wrote: >>> "Doomriser" wrote: >>>>"The Baron" wrote: >> >>>>>You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, >>>>>especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. >>>>>What is relevant is that they DO do it. >>>> >>>>If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by any, >>>>every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) >>> >>> We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. >>> http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html >> >>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by >>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. >> >Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been >destroyed? > >Oh wait, no. > RIKER (looking at plants in holodeck): I didn't believe these could be so real. DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies to an energy beam, then back to the original pattern again... (Encounter at Farpoint) (Leech shoots Whalen in the chest. He collapses to the floor) WHALEN (whispering in disbelief): But... they're not real. BEVERLY: This man has been shot. If we don't get him to Sickbay, he'll die. (The Big Goodbye) Note the second carefully. -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:08:44 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D89158C.B08ED371@daltonator.net> -------- Sir Nitram wrote: > > >On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:25:03 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" > > wrote: > > > >>DarkStar wrote: > >>> "Doomriser" wrote: > >>>>"The Baron" wrote: > >> > >>>>>You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, > >>>>>especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. > >>>>>What is relevant is that they DO do it. > >>>> > >>>>If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by any, > >>>>every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) > >>> > >>> We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. > >>> http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html > >> > >>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by > >>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. > >> > >Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been > >destroyed? > > > >Oh wait, no. > > > > RIKER (looking at plants in holodeck): I didn't believe these could be so real. > > DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies to an > energy beam, then back to the original pattern again... > > (Encounter at Farpoint) > > (Leech shoots Whalen in the chest. He collapses to the floor) > WHALEN (whispering in disbelief): But... they're not real. > BEVERLY: This man has been shot. If we don't get him to Sickbay, he'll die. > > (The Big Goodbye) > > Note the second carefully. WAAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAA! Dickstar loses!! -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 02:01:13 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Dalton" wrote in message news:3D89158C.B08ED371@daltonator.net... > WAAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAA! > > Dickstar loses!! 1. You're wrong. 2. Biased much? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:27:29 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D893611.66CB4392@daltonator.net> -------- DarkStar wrote: > > "Dalton" wrote in message > news:3D89158C.B08ED371@daltonator.net... > > > WAAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAA! > > > > Dickstar loses!! > > 1. You're wrong. You're right! I'm so sorry. Of course. > 2. Biased much? Not as much as you, sadly. Though I'm working on it! Soon, we will bring down the evil Warsie pricks. -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 03:09:06 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Dalton" wrote in message news:3D893611.66CB4392@daltonator.net... > DarkStar wrote: > > > > "Dalton" wrote in message > > news:3D89158C.B08ED371@daltonator.net... > > > > > WAAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAA! > > > > > > Dickstar loses!! > > > > 1. You're wrong. > > You're right! I'm so sorry. Of course. If only you were intelligent enough for that to not be sarcasm . . . > > > 2. Biased much? > > Not as much as you, sadly. Well, I don't leap up and down screaming WAAHAHAHAHA whenever I think I've smashed a Warsie argument. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:14:32 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D894118.2B42D1ED@daltonator.net> -------- DarkStar wrote: > > "Dalton" wrote in message > news:3D893611.66CB4392@daltonator.net... > > DarkStar wrote: > > > > > > "Dalton" wrote in message > > > news:3D89158C.B08ED371@daltonator.net... > > > > > > > WAAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAA! > > > > > > > > Dickstar loses!! > > > > > > 1. You're wrong. > > > > You're right! I'm so sorry. Of course. > > If only you were intelligent enough for that to not be sarcasm . . . I humbly apologize. > > > 2. Biased much? > > > > Not as much as you, sadly. > > Well, I don't leap up and down screaming WAAHAHAHAHA whenever I think I've > smashed a Warsie argument. You're right. I apologize again. -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 02:00:13 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Sir Nitram" wrote in message news:20020918193749.05505.00005260@mb-fc.aol.com... > >On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:25:03 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" > > wrote: > > > >>DarkStar wrote: > >>> "Doomriser" wrote: > >>>>"The Baron" wrote: > >> > >>>>>You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, > >>>>>especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. > >>>>>What is relevant is that they DO do it. > >>>> > >>>>If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by any, > >>>>every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) > >>> > >>> We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. > >>> http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html > >> > >>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by > >>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. > >> > >Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been > >destroyed? > > > >Oh wait, no. > > > > RIKER (looking at plants in holodeck): I didn't believe these could be so real. > > DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies to an > energy beam, then back to the original pattern again... > > (Encounter at Farpoint) > > (Leech shoots Whalen in the chest. He collapses to the floor) > WHALEN (whispering in disbelief): But... they're not real. > BEVERLY: This man has been shot. If we don't get him to Sickbay, he'll die. > "... even a holographic bullet can kill." - Picard, First Contact ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 19 Sep 2002 03:43:36 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <20020918234336.05505.00005345@mb-fc.aol.com> -------- >"Sir Nitram" wrote in message >news:20020918193749.05505.00005260@mb-fc.aol.com... >> >On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:25:03 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" >> > wrote: >> > >> >>DarkStar wrote: >> >>> "Doomriser" wrote: >> >>>>"The Baron" wrote: >> >> >> >>>>>You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, >> >>>>>especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. >> >>>>>What is relevant is that they DO do it. >> >>>> >> >>>>If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by >any, >> >>>>every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) >> >>> >> >>> We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. >> >>> http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html >> >> >> >>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by >> >>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. >> >> >> >Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been >> >destroyed? >> > >> >Oh wait, no. >> > >> >> RIKER (looking at plants in holodeck): I didn't believe these could be so >real. >> >> DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies >to an >> energy beam, then back to the original pattern again... >> >> (Encounter at Farpoint) >> >> (Leech shoots Whalen in the chest. He collapses to the floor) >> WHALEN (whispering in disbelief): But... they're not real. >> BEVERLY: This man has been shot. If we don't get him to Sickbay, he'll >die. >> > >"... even a holographic bullet can kill." >- Picard, First Contact > Very good! You point out another quote which points out bullets are going to, at very least, share all charateristics to their real counterparts. Now, how shall we confuse you and send you to contradicting your stated position next... -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lord Edam de Fromage <$mike$@trek-wars.info> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:19:16 +0100 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- In article <20020918234336.05505.00005345@mb-fc.aol.com>, nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam says... > >"... even a holographic bullet can kill." > >- Picard, First Contact > > > > Very good! You point out another quote which points out bullets are going to, > at very least, share all charateristics to their real counterparts. the quote only points out bullets sharing one characteristic with their real counterparts - the ability to kill. do not extend the quote beyond what it says -- Lord Edam de Fromage AIM: Sorborus www.trek-wars.info I am the mariner who navigated seas celestial astronaut ambassador sent to foreign shores terrestrial ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 19 Sep 2002 18:36:33 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <20020919143633.23214.00000399@mb-fp.aol.com> -------- >In article <20020918234336.05505.00005345@mb-fc.aol.com>, >nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam says... > >> >"... even a holographic bullet can kill." >> >- Picard, First Contact >> > >> >> Very good! You point out another quote which points out bullets are going >to, >> at very least, share all charateristics to their real counterparts. > >the quote only points out bullets sharing one characteristic with their >real counterparts - the ability to kill. do not extend the quote beyond >what it says > How does a bullet kill? Kinetic energy and momentum. Well, more specifically, punching through someone. But that's done by their KE and momentum. -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lord Edam de Fromage <$mike$@trek-wars.info> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:04:30 +0100 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- In article <20020919143633.23214.00000399@mb-fp.aol.com>, nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam says... > >In article <20020918234336.05505.00005345@mb-fc.aol.com>, > >nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam says... > > > >> >"... even a holographic bullet can kill." > >> >- Picard, First Contact > >> > > >> > >> Very good! You point out another quote which points out bullets are going > >to, > >> at very least, share all charateristics to their real counterparts. > > > >the quote only points out bullets sharing one characteristic with their > >real counterparts - the ability to kill. do not extend the quote beyond > >what it says > > > > How does a bullet kill? Kinetic energy and momentum. Well, more specifically, > punching through someone. But that's done by their KE and momentum. Real bullets kill by applying a force, though this is generated from a massive object holographic bullets could kill by applying a force that has no relation to a massive object, if the assumptions regarding "interaction = real" are wrong. Forcefields are very different from real objects in how they act, even if they do achieve the same final result. -- Lord Edam de Fromage AIM: Sorborus www.trek-wars.info I am the mariner who navigated seas celestial astronaut ambassador sent to foreign shores terrestrial ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 19 Sep 2002 20:40:08 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <20020919164008.10797.00007372@mb-cu.aol.com> -------- >In article <20020919143633.23214.00000399@mb-fp.aol.com>, >nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam says... >> >In article <20020918234336.05505.00005345@mb-fc.aol.com>, >> >nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam says... >> > >> >> >"... even a holographic bullet can kill." >> >> >- Picard, First Contact >> >> > >> >> >> >> Very good! You point out another quote which points out bullets are >going >> >to, >> >> at very least, share all charateristics to their real counterparts. >> > >> >the quote only points out bullets sharing one characteristic with their >> >real counterparts - the ability to kill. do not extend the quote beyond >> >what it says >> > >> >> How does a bullet kill? Kinetic energy and momentum. Well, more >specifically, >> punching through someone. But that's done by their KE and momentum. > >Real bullets kill by applying a force, though this is generated from a >massive object >holographic bullets could kill by applying a force that has no relation >to a massive object, if the assumptions regarding "interaction = real" >are wrong. > >Forcefields are very different from real objects in how they act, even >if they do achieve the same final result. > We are told that many things in the holodeck are real, we are told a man shot by a holographic bullet is shot, and a tommy gun perforates Borg Drones. What, exactly, drives you to ascribe an unknown force instead of assuming they simply duplicated the bullets, if not solidly, than their effects? -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lord Edam de Fromage <$mike$@trek-wars.info> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:10:38 +0100 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- > We are told that many things in the holodeck are real, we are told a man shot > by a holographic bullet is shot, and a tommy gun perforates Borg Drones. What, > exactly, drives you to ascribe an unknown force instead of assuming they simply > duplicated the bullets, if not solidly, than their effects? The fact that your logic leads us to conclude holodecks can create real people, when this need not be the case "None of this is real" - your quote "Even holographic bullets can kill" - your quote. Clearly, they aren't real bullets, or it would be "even holographic bullets are real" ENT:Unexpected and that voy ep about fairhaven that wasn't Fair Haven, holodecks are stated to use hard and/or resequenced photons to give the appearance of reality without being real. Your quote from Elementary Dear Data has never appeared in any version of hte episode I've seen, so is technically inadmissable(unless you can prove it was aired), and in any case it is preceeded by a statement from Data (that also doesn't appear in the episode) that they don't know how to turn holodeck matter (the not real stuff, the fake stuff, the hard photons / resequenced photons) into more permanent matter. Your claims rely on the fact that holodeck bullets are real bullets - they aren't. They are forcefields & photons. They have no measuerable KE, they have no measureable momentum. They have the illusion of being real bullets without being real -- Lord Edam de Fromage AIM:Sorborus www.trek-wars.info ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:42:52 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Lord Edam de Fromage" <$mike$@trek-wars.info> wrote > Your claims rely on the fact that holodeck bullets are real bullets - > they aren't. They are forcefields & photons. They have no measuerable > KE, they have no measureable momentum. Actually, this isn't true. We know this from the DS9 episode, "Take Me Out To The Holosuite" How could they play baseball if the ball they were playing with didn't have any measurable momentum? > They have the illusion of being real bullets without being real They don't need to be really. If a holodeck can replicate exactly how a bullet looks and acts and interacts with its surroundings; in other words, if a holodeck is indeed capable of generating an exact representation of what its called to do, then we know exactly what would happen to a Borg if it was hit by an actual bullet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 23:00:33 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:uoo1mudlntt9c5@corp.supernews.com... > > "Lord Edam de Fromage" <$mike$@trek-wars.info> wrote > > > Your claims rely on the fact that holodeck bullets are real bullets - > > they aren't. They are forcefields & photons. They have no measuerable > > KE, they have no measureable momentum. > > Actually, this isn't true. We know this from the DS9 episode, "Take Me Out > To The Holosuite" > > How could they play baseball if the ball they were playing with didn't have > any measurable momentum? Probably the same way the Holodoc could slap Paris. Simulated forces by way of forcefield. > > They have the illusion of being real bullets without being real > > They don't need to be really. If a holodeck can replicate exactly how a > bullet looks and acts and interacts with its surroundings; in other words, > if a holodeck is indeed capable of generating an exact representation of > what its called to do, then we know exactly what would happen to a Borg if > it was hit by an actual bullet. Illogical, totally. Even if it looks like a bullet and smells like a bullet, it isn't a bullet, and there is absolutely no reason to assume that it would affect the Borg as would a real bullet, or that they would react to it as if it were a bullet. Or, in other words, you can't screw a holochick and expect a real kid in nine months. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lord Edam de Fromage <$mike$@trek-wars.info> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 08:45:38 +0100 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- > > Your claims rely on the fact that holodeck bullets are real bullets - > > they aren't. They are forcefields & photons. They have no measuerable > > KE, they have no measureable momentum. > > Actually, this isn't true. We know this from the DS9 episode, "Take Me Out > To The Holosuite" > > How could they play baseball if the ball they were playing with didn't have > any measurable momentum? Theonly time the ball needs the illusion of momentum is when it's struck or caught - ie, when it is exerting a FORCE. ie, when they can use FORCEFIELDS > > They have the illusion of being real bullets without being real > > They don't need to be really. If a holodeck can replicate exactly how a > bullet looks and acts and interacts with its surroundings; in other words, > if a holodeck is indeed capable of generating an exact representation of > what its called to do, then we know exactly what would happen to a Borg if > it was hit by an actual bullet. This assumes the holographic bullet interacts with the borg in exactly the same way as a normal bullets. Since this started in regards to borg KE shields, here's a couple of specific problems to usign this example for proof/notproof of Borg KE shields (there are others, but you can start with these) 1. - if the borg detect the bullet is not real, would they bother with their KE shields? 2. - if the bullet isn't real, but the borg detected it as real, would their KE shields have the same effect against what is basically magic photons? -- Lord Edam de Fromage AIM:Sorborus www.trek-wars.info ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:55:19 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Lord Edam de Fromage" <$mike$@trek-wars.info> wrote > > > Your claims rely on the fact that holodeck bullets are real bullets - > > > they aren't. They are forcefields & photons. They have no measuerable > > > KE, they have no measureable momentum. > > Actually, this isn't true. We know this from the DS9 episode, "Take Me Out > > To The Holosuite" > > How could they play baseball if the ball they were playing with didn't have > > any measurable momentum? > Theonly time the ball needs the illusion of momentum is when it's struck > or caught - ie, when it is exerting a FORCE. ie, when they can use > FORCEFIELDS Right. This is no different if one MISSES the ball and is HIT by it. The same kind of welt should be raised on the person's noggin. > > > They have the illusion of being real bullets without being real > > They don't need to be really. If a holodeck can replicate exactly how a > > bullet looks and acts and interacts with its surroundings; in other words, > > if a holodeck is indeed capable of generating an exact representation of > > what its called to do, then we know exactly what would happen to a Borg if > > it was hit by an actual bullet. > This assumes the holographic bullet interacts with the borg in exactly > the same way as a normal bullets. No reason why it shouldn't, if we believe the claims that a holodeck can simulate things accurately. The guy that got shot in "The Big Goodbye" reacted as if he was shot with an actual gun. He even bled as if this were so. > Since this started in regards to borg KE shields, here's a couple of > specific problems to usign this example for proof/notproof of Borg KE > shields (there are others, but you can start with these) > > 1. - if the borg detect the bullet is not real, would they bother with > their KE shields? As with the rifle butts, fists, knives, thrown drones, etc. these fake bullets, as we have seen, would cause damage to a drone, thus hampering it/them from completing its current task. This is reason alone to use the shield if it existed. Once something has shown to be a hinderance to the Borg- it is dealt with. > 2. - if the bullet isn't real, but the borg detected it as real, would > their KE shields have the same effect against what is basically magic > photons? Yes, because those bullets would have no other magic property that real bullets don't--IF we assume a holodeck simulates things exactly as they should. http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lord Edam de Fromage <$mike$@trek-wars.info> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:31:47 +0100 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- It must've been some good cheese - that mushroom's talking to me. And it says its name is Wayne Poe > > "Lord Edam de Fromage" <$mike$@trek-wars.info> wrote > > > > > Your claims rely on the fact that holodeck bullets are real bullets - > > > > they aren't. They are forcefields & photons. They have no measuerable > > > > KE, they have no measureable momentum. > > > > Actually, this isn't true. We know this from the DS9 episode, "Take Me > Out > > > To The Holosuite" > > > > How could they play baseball if the ball they were playing with didn't > have > > > any measurable momentum? > > > Theonly time the ball needs the illusion of momentum is when it's struck > > or caught - ie, when it is exerting a FORCE. ie, when they can use > > FORCEFIELDS > > Right. This is no different if one MISSES the ball and is HIT by it. The > same kind of welt should be raised on the person's noggin. > > > > > They have the illusion of being real bullets without being real > > > > They don't need to be really. If a holodeck can replicate exactly how a > > > bullet looks and acts and interacts with its surroundings; in other > words, > > > if a holodeck is indeed capable of generating an exact representation of > > > what its called to do, then we know exactly what would happen to a Borg > if > > > it was hit by an actual bullet. > > > This assumes the holographic bullet interacts with the borg in exactly > > the same way as a normal bullets. > > No reason why it shouldn't, if we believe the claims that a holodeck can > simulate things accurately. The guy that got shot in "The Big Goodbye" > reacted as if he was shot with an actual gun. He even bled as if this were > so. > > > Since this started in regards to borg KE shields, here's a couple of > > specific problems to usign this example for proof/notproof of Borg KE > > shields (there are others, but you can start with these) > > > > 1. - if the borg detect the bullet is not real, would they bother with > > their KE shields? > > As with the rifle butts, fists, knives, thrown drones, etc. these fake > bullets, as we have seen, would cause damage to a drone, thus hampering > it/them from completing its current task. This is reason alone to use the > shield if it existed. Which assumes the shield works against forcefields and photons. > > 2. - if the bullet isn't real, but the borg detected it as real, would > > their KE shields have the same effect against what is basically magic > > photons? > > Yes, because those bullets would have no other magic property that real > bullets don't Real bullets are neither forcefields nor photons. Holodeck bullets are. --IF we assume a holodeck simulates things exactly as they > should. If we assume the holodeck does not use forcefields and photons even though that is how they are described, and is capable of generating real matter, even though I've provided a quote that they can't. -- Lord Edam de Fromage AIM:Sorborus www.trek-wars.info ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Graeme Dice Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:44:34 -0600 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D906C42.842ABB0C@sk.sympatico.ca> -------- Lord Edam de Fromage wrote: > > It must've been some good cheese - that mushroom's talking to me. And it > says its name is Wayne Poe > --IF we assume a holodeck simulates things exactly as they > > should. > > If we assume the holodeck does not use forcefields and photons even > though that is how they are described, and is capable of generating real > matter, even though I've provided a quote that they can't. Which would be a contradiction to the episode where Harry dissappears into the holodeck in his Beowulf program and they blame thje matter-conversion ability of the holodeck. Graeme Dice -- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -- Robert A. Heinlin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 16:43:08 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Lord Edam de Fromage" <$mike$@trek-wars.info> wrote > > > 1. - if the borg detect the bullet is not real, would they bother with > > > their KE shields? > > As with the rifle butts, fists, knives, thrown drones, etc. these fake > > bullets, as we have seen, would cause damage to a drone, thus hampering > > it/them from completing its current task. This is reason alone to use the > > shield if it existed. > Which assumes the shield works against forcefields and photons. This assumes that the Borg automatically know the bullets are fake, number one. As seen in ST:FC, the drones didn't know the doorman was a hologram until he scanned him with his laser pointer. They didn't have the time to do this with oncoming bullets. Number two, if these forcefields and photons act exactly and perfectly like their RL counterparts, then it is still incumbent upon the drones to protect themselves from these forces exactly as they would if confronted by their RL counterparts. However, we know from other episodes that holodeck can and do replicate objects that interact with the player. Especially when the safeties are shut off. > > > 2. - if the bullet isn't real, but the borg detected it as real, would > > > their KE shields have the same effect against what is basically magic > > > photons? > > Yes, because those bullets would have no other magic property that real > > bullets don't > Real bullets are neither forcefields nor photons. Holodeck bullets are. Doesn't matter. They will STILL cause damage to a drone, thus hampering it/them from completing its current task. These holo-bullets do nothing more than simulate a RL bullet. And that would include using the replicator to make them look, feel, and weigh exactly like a RL bullet. Thus, it IS a real bullet. Unless the holodeck is flawed and simply uses invisible forcefields to simulate these bullets, which would be counter an exact simulation of 1930's era Thompson sub machinegun. > --IF we assume a holodeck simulates things exactly as they > > should. > If we assume the holodeck does not use forcefields and photons even > though that is how they are described, and is capable of generating real > matter, even though I've provided a quote that they can't. Does this quote override all the other instances that prove the exact opposite? Such as the lipstick kiss on Picard's cheek he walked out of the holodeck with, the snowball that was thrown out of the holodeck and hit Picard, the ale the Voyager crew drank in the Fair Haven bar, etc? Why would a man shot by these "forcefields" bleed? http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 01:15:46 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:up1u4ee6hvotbe@corp.supernews.com... > > "Lord Edam de Fromage" <$mike$@trek-wars.info> wrote > > > > > 1. - if the borg detect the bullet is not real, would they bother with > > > > their KE shields? > > > > As with the rifle butts, fists, knives, thrown drones, etc. these fake > > > bullets, as we have seen, would cause damage to a drone, thus hampering > > > it/them from completing its current task. This is reason alone to use > the > > > shield if it existed. > > > Which assumes the shield works against forcefields and photons. > > This assumes that the Borg automatically know the bullets are fake, number > one. The hell? Why must the Borg know jack? This isn't like "Spectre of the Gun", Wayne. Either their shield is capable of repelling the forcefield attack in that instance, or it isn't . . . what the Borg thought is irrelevant. > Number two, if these forcefields and photons act exactly and perfectly like > their RL counterparts, then it is still incumbent upon the drones to protect > themselves from these forces exactly as they would if confronted by their RL > counterparts. Illogical. A forcefield is not a hunk of metal, no matter how much you want to believe this to be the case. > However, we know from other episodes that holodeck can and do > replicate objects that interact with the player. Especially when the > safeties are shut off. No, we don't know that. What we do know is that with the safeties on, relative participant safety is assured. With the safeties off, people can get hurt, even by objects with simulated solidity. Your continuing effort to sneak-attach replication to the safeties issue remains incorrect. > Why would a man shot by these "forcefields" bleed? Probably because he has a hole in his side, produced by a shaped forcefield pushing it's way through his flesh. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:28:18 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" > "Wayne Poe" wrote > > This assumes that the Borg automatically know the bullets are fake, number > > one. > The hell? Why must Shut the FUCK up. http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 04:33:12 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:up27q57chj7cb3@corp.supernews.com... > > "DarkStar" > > "Wayne Poe" wrote > > > > This assumes that the Borg automatically know the bullets are fake, > number > > > one. > > > The hell? Why must > > Shut the FUCK up. "Concession Accepted." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 23:46:25 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote > "Wayne Poe" wrote > > > > This assumes that the Borg automatically know the bullets are fake, number one. > > > The hell? Why must > > Shut the FUCK up. > I confess to being excited! Oh boys... I knew it... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:49:05 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D92ADE1.5D8DD10B@daltonator.net> -------- Wayne Poe wrote: > > "DarkStar" wrote > > > "Wayne Poe" wrote > > > > > > This assumes that the Borg automatically know the bullets are fake, > number one. > > > > > The hell? Why must > > > > Shut the FUCK up. > > > I confess to being excited! Oh boys... > > I knew it... Tube-steak Tarzan! -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:27:32 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Dalton" wrote > Wayne Poe wrote: > > "DarkStar" wrote > > > > Shut the FUCK up. > > > I confess to being excited! Oh boys... > > I knew it... > Tube-steak Tarzan! Yup. Shit-Stabber. Pillow Biter. Turd Tickler. B.V.Deviant. Sausage Samurai. Weenie Genie. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 03:35:30 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D92B8C2.74CEDE65@daltonator.net> -------- Wayne Poe wrote: > > "Dalton" wrote > > > Wayne Poe wrote: > > > > "DarkStar" wrote > > > > > > Shut the FUCK up. > > > > > I confess to being excited! Oh boys... > > > > I knew it... > > > Tube-steak Tarzan! > > Yup. Shit-Stabber. Pillow Biter. Turd Tickler. B.V.Deviant. Sausage Samurai. > Weenie Genie. Hah, must get a lot of that living in Cali. New Yorkers usually stick with a simple "fag". -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:55:05 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Dalton" wrote > Wayne Poe wrote: > > Yup. Shit-Stabber. Pillow Biter. Turd Tickler. B.V.Deviant. Sausage Samurai. > > Weenie Genie. > > Hah, must get a lot of that living in Cali. New Yorkers usually stick > with a simple "fag". Not true! I got most of those names out of Stern's "Private Parts" book! The rest come from the UK comic, Viz. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 04:03:57 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D92BF6D.63B7D3D6@daltonator.net> -------- Wayne Poe wrote: > > "Dalton" wrote > > > Wayne Poe wrote: > > > > Yup. Shit-Stabber. Pillow Biter. Turd Tickler. B.V.Deviant. Sausage > Samurai. > > > Weenie Genie. > > > > Hah, must get a lot of that living in Cali. New Yorkers usually stick > > with a simple "fag". > > Not true! I got most of those names out of Stern's "Private Parts" book! Gotta get me that... > The rest come from the UK comic, Viz. Comic as in comedian? -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:09:52 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Dalton" wrote > Wayne Poe wrote: > > > Hah, must get a lot of that living in Cali. New Yorkers usually stick with a simple "fag". > > Not true! I got most of those names out of Stern's "Private Parts" book! > Gotta get me that... Funniest goddamn book I've ever read. Lot better than the movie was. > > The rest come from the UK comic, Viz. > > Comic as in comedian? Nope: http://www.viz.co.uk/ So vulgar, so funny, its baffles the mind that its printed in the U.K. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:22:10 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D93C0D2.5B345804@daltonator.net> -------- Wayne Poe wrote: > > "Dalton" wrote > > > Wayne Poe wrote: > > > > > Hah, must get a lot of that living in Cali. New Yorkers usually stick > with a simple "fag". > > > > Not true! I got most of those names out of Stern's "Private Parts" book! > > > Gotta get me that... > > Funniest goddamn book I've ever read. Lot better than the movie was. I liked the movie. > > > The rest come from the UK comic, Viz. > > > > Comic as in comedian? > > Nope: > > http://www.viz.co.uk/ > > So vulgar, so funny, its baffles the mind that its printed in the U.K. Well, Britain is a lot freer than America is in some respects. -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:37:46 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Dalton" wrote > Wayne Poe wrote: > > > > Not true! I got most of those names out of Stern's "Private Parts" book! > > > Gotta get me that... > > Funniest goddamn book I've ever read. Lot better than the movie was. > I liked the movie. It could have been better. It was actually 80% FICTION! Read the book, you'll see. > > http://www.viz.co.uk/ > > So vulgar, so funny, its baffles the mind that its printed in the U.K. > Well, Britain is a lot freer than America is in some respects. Yeah, but we have toothpaste here... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:32:17 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D93ED61.C2D1EE4A@daltonator.net> -------- Wayne Poe wrote: > > "Dalton" wrote > > > Wayne Poe wrote: > > > > > > Not true! I got most of those names out of Stern's "Private Parts" > book! > > > > > Gotta get me that... > > > > Funniest goddamn book I've ever read. Lot better than the movie was. > > > I liked the movie. > > It could have been better. It was actually 80% FICTION! Read the book, > you'll see. Whoa, seriously? > > > http://www.viz.co.uk/ > > > > So vulgar, so funny, its baffles the mind that its printed in the U.K. > > > Well, Britain is a lot freer than America is in some respects. > > Yeah, but we have toothpaste here... Ahahahahaaaaaaaaaa -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:03:54 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Dalton" wrote > > It could have been better. It was actually 80% FICTION! Read the book, > > you'll see. > Whoa, seriously? Yeah, a lot of the stuff like Robin getting fired from WNBC was total fabrication. Howard's wife catching him "cheating", Howard's wife going in to labor onstage with AC/DC, etc. The one thing that really is bothersome is, if you notice, after Howard does something really cool or funny, there's a scene with his wife calling him an asshole or bringing him down. Completely destroys the movie. And there's nohing in there with the REALLY RL funny stuff, like his fights with Don Imus, Soupy Sales, or how he completely destroyed his competition, like that guy from Pennsylvania. > > > > http://www.viz.co.uk/ > > > > > > So vulgar, so funny, its baffles the mind that its printed in the U.K. > > > > > Well, Britain is a lot freer than America is in some respects. > > > > Yeah, but we have toothpaste here... > > Ahahahahaaaaaaaaaa Hehehe! Well, their one saving grace is that a lot of the women grow big hooters... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 00:29:01 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D96818D.E069439E@daltonator.net> -------- Wayne Poe wrote: > > "Dalton" wrote > > > > It could have been better. It was actually 80% FICTION! Read the book, > > > you'll see. > > > Whoa, seriously? > > Yeah, a lot of the stuff like Robin getting fired from WNBC was total > fabrication. Howard's wife catching him "cheating", Howard's wife going in > to labor onstage with AC/DC, etc. The one thing that really is bothersome > is, if you notice, after Howard does something really cool or funny, there's > a scene with his wife calling him an asshole or bringing him down. > Completely destroys the movie. And there's nohing in there with the REALLY > RL funny stuff, like his fights with Don Imus, Soupy Sales, or how he > completely destroyed his competition, like that guy from Pennsylvania. Humm, probably had to "creatively edit" it to make Stern a more sympathetic character. PR move? > > > > > http://www.viz.co.uk/ > > > > > > > > So vulgar, so funny, its baffles the mind that its printed in the > U.K. > > > > > > > Well, Britain is a lot freer than America is in some respects. > > > > > > Yeah, but we have toothpaste here... > > > > Ahahahahaaaaaaaaaa > > Hehehe! Well, their one saving grace is that a lot of the women grow big > hooters... Naked women with floppy breasts. -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 04:32:21 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:up1u4ee6hvotbe@corp.supernews.com... > > "Lord Edam de Fromage" <$mike$@trek-wars.info> wrote > > > > > 1. - if the borg detect the bullet is not real, would they bother with > > > > their KE shields? > > > > As with the rifle butts, fists, knives, thrown drones, etc. these fake > > > bullets, as we have seen, would cause damage to a drone, thus hampering > > > it/them from completing its current task. This is reason alone to use > the > > > shield if it existed. > > > Which assumes the shield works against forcefields and photons. > > This assumes that the Borg automatically know the bullets are fake, number > one. The hell? Why must the Borg know jack? This isn't like "Spectre of the Gun", Wayne. Either their shield is capable of repelling the forcefield attack in that instance, or it isn't . . . what the Borg thought is irrelevant. > Number two, if these forcefields and photons act exactly and perfectly like > their RL counterparts, then it is still incumbent upon the drones to protect > themselves from these forces exactly as they would if confronted by their RL > counterparts. Illogical. A forcefield is not a hunk of metal, no matter how much you want to believe this to be the case. > However, we know from other episodes that holodeck can and do > replicate objects that interact with the player. Especially when the > safeties are shut off. No, we don't know that. What we do know is that with the safeties on, relative participant safety is assured. With the safeties off, people can get hurt, even by objects with simulated solidity. Your continuing effort to sneak-attach replication to the safeties issue remains incorrect. > Why would a man shot by these "forcefields" bleed? Probably because he has a hole in his side, produced by a shaped forcefield pushing it's way through his flesh. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 23:45:13 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote > "Wayne Poe" > > This assumes that the Borg automatically know the bullets are fake, number > > one. > The hell? Why Shut the motherFUCK up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lord Edam de Fromage <$mike$@trek-wars.info> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:51:09 +0100 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- It must've been some good cheese - that mushroom's talking to me. And it says its name is Wayne Poe > > Which assumes the shield works against forcefields and photons. > > This assumes that the Borg automatically know the bullets are fake, That has nothing to do with the question of whether KE shielding works the same on forcefields and photons as it does on real, material objects with mass and momentum. > Number two, if these forcefields and photons act exactly and perfectly like > their RL counterparts, do they, or is it merely the illusion of reality? then it is still incumbent upon the drones to protect > themselves from these forces exactly as they would if confronted by their RL > counterparts. Do their KE shields work against forcefields and photons? However, we know from other episodes that holodeck can and do > replicate objects that interact with the player. We've been over that earlier in this thread. Especially when the > safeties are shut off. Turning the sfeties off just means the forcefields and photons go on to kill/maim instead of being stopped by the computer before they can do that. > > Real bullets are neither forcefields nor photons. Holodeck bullets are. > > Doesn't matter. They will STILL cause damage to a drone, thus hampering > it/them from completing its current task. But to use this as proof/notproof of borg Ke shielding you'd have to show forcefields and photons have the same affect on KE shielding as a real bullet would. You keep avoiding this issue and insisting that since they do similar damage they must be the exact same thing. They aren't. These holo-bullets do nothing more > than simulate a RL bullet. And that would include using the replicator to > make them look, feel, and weigh exactly like a RL bullet. Or be photons and forcefields that make the players think they are real. Thus, it IS a real > bullet. Unless the holodeck is flawed and simply uses invisible forcefields > to simulate these bullets, If ti manags to give teh appearance of reality, where's the flaw? which would be counter an exact simulation of > 1930's era Thompson sub machinegun. It doesn't need to be an exact simulation - it needs to have the illusion of a realistic simulation. You don't need the entire internal mechanism of the machine gun to give the illusion of the gun firing using photons and forcefiels. You don't need real bullets to give the illusion of somenoe being hit using photons and fircefields. I've been over the problems of this "interaction = really real" thing earlier in the thread. > > If we assume the holodeck does not use forcefields and photons even > > though that is how they are described, and is capable of generating real > > matter, even though I've provided a quote that they can't. > > Does this quote override all the other instances that prove the exact > opposite? Such as the lipstick kiss on Picard's cheek he walked out of the > holodeck with, the snowball that was thrown out of the holodeck and hit > Picard, the ale the Voyager crew drank in the Fair Haven bar, etc? Examples that are either similar to, or have already been discussed, elsewhere in this thread. -- Lord Edam de Fromage AIM:Sorborus www.trek-wars.info ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:06:22 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Lord Edam de Fromage" <$mike$@trek-wars.info> wrote > > > Which assumes the shield works against forcefields and photons. > > This assumes that the Borg automatically know the bullets are fake, > That has nothing to do with the question of whether KE shielding works > the same on forcefields and photons as it does on real, material objects > with mass and momentum. Yes, it does. If its a perfect simulation, the Borg will react to it as if it were actually real. > > Number two, if these forcefields and photons act exactly and perfectly like > > their RL counterparts, > do they, or is it merely the illusion of reality? As shown earlier in the thread, they act exactly and perfectly like their RL counterparts. As seen in ST:FC, the drones didn't know the doorman was a hologram until he scanned him with his laser pointer. They didn't have the time to do this with oncoming bullets. > > then it is still incumbent upon the drones to protect > > themselves from these forces exactly as they would if confronted by their RL > > counterparts. > Do their KE shields work against forcefields and photons? I'm not arguing YOUR theory, Edam. I'm proving mine. > However, we know from other episodes that holodeck can and do > > replicate objects that interact with the player. > We've been over that earlier in this thread. And its still perfectly valid. And it disproves your stance. > > Especially when the safeties are shut off. > Turning the sfeties off just means the forcefields and photons go on to > kill/maim instead of being stopped by the computer before they can do > that. Does it? Or are replicated chairs in a bar in the hologram that gets smashed over one's head actually chairs, and not forcefields? > > > Real bullets are neither forcefields nor photons. Holodeck bullets are. > > Doesn't matter. They will STILL cause damage to a drone, thus hampering > > it/them from completing its current task. > But to use this as proof/notproof of borg Ke shielding you'd have to > show forcefields and photons have the same affect on KE shielding as a > real bullet would. You keep avoiding this issue and insisting that since > they do similar damage they must be the exact same thing. They aren't. I'm avoiding nothing. I'm questioning your theory and then disproving it with mine: holodecks create for all intents and purposes, real bullets. With real weight, real lead, real gunpowder, etc. This is incumbent on the holodeck if it is to produce an exact simulation. > > These holo-bullets do nothing more > > than simulate a RL bullet. And that would include using the replicator to > > make them look, feel, and weigh exactly like a RL bullet. > Or be photons and forcefields that make the players think they are real. Not if it is to produce an exact simulation. > > Thus, it IS a real bullet. Unless the holodeck is flawed and simply uses invisible forcefields to simulate these bullets, > If ti manags to give teh appearance of reality, where's the flaw? Remember, this is a Dixon Hill adventure we are talking about. Photons and forcefields won't make a man bleed by punching through his abdomen. Photons and forcefields won't produce a bullet for Dixon Hill to dig out of a wall to gather clues with. > >which would be counter an exact simulation of 1930's era Thompson sub machinegun. > It doesn't need to be an exact simulation - it needs to have the > illusion of a realistic simulation. You don't need the entire internal > mechanism of the machine gun to give the illusion of the gun firing > using photons and forcefiels. You don't need real bullets to give the > illusion of somenoe being hit using photons and fircefields. How will someone bleed if they are being hit by what is essentially a laser? You DO need an exact simulation if the holodeck does what it is said to be capable of: a total immersion into a reality of your choosing. Again, a 1930's detective can't gather a photon as a clue. Sorta takes one out of the moment, you see. > I've been over the problems of this "interaction = really real" thing > earlier in the thread. And I have yet to see a counter to this in this thread. > > > If we assume the holodeck does not use forcefields and photons even > > > though that is how they are described, and is capable of generating real > > > matter, even though I've provided a quote that they can't. > > Does this quote override all the other instances that prove the exact > > opposite? Such as the lipstick kiss on Picard's cheek he walked out of the > > holodeck with, the snowball that was thrown out of the holodeck and hit > > Picard, the ale the Voyager crew drank in the Fair Haven bar, etc? > Examples that are either similar to, or have already been discussed, > elsewhere in this thread. And I have yet to see a counter to this in this thread. http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lord Edam de Fromage <$mike$@trek-wars.info> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:48:07 +0100 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- It must've been some good cheese - that mushroom's talking to me. And it says its name is Wayne Poe > > > > Which assumes the shield works against forcefields and photons. > > > > This assumes that the Borg automatically know the bullets are fake, > > > That has nothing to do with the question of whether KE shielding works > > the same on forcefields and photons as it does on real, material objects > > with mass and momentum. > > Yes, it does. If its a perfect simulation, the Borg will react to it as if > it were actually real. which only means they would put their shields up if they have them - it does not mean the shields will act the same against photons as they would against real matter. > > > Number two, if these forcefields and photons act exactly and perfectly > like > > > their RL counterparts, > > > do they, or is it merely the illusion of reality? > > As shown earlier in the thread, they act exactly and perfectly like their RL > counterparts. blah blah blah. You've been taking lessons from Darkstar, haven't you. Just keep repeating your point. They have the illusion of reality. They are not real. > > Do their KE shields work against forcefields and photons? > > I'm not arguing YOUR theory, Edam. concession accepted. FC cannot be used as proof/notproof of Borg KE shields. -- Lord Edam de Fromage AIM:Sorborus www.trek-wars.info ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:53:48 -0700 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- "Lord Edam de Fromage" <$mike$@trek-wars.info> wrote > blah blah blah. You've been taking lessons from Darkstar, haven't you. > Just keep repeating your point. Especially when my point is backed up by the aired episodes, while yours is simply deny deny deny because you don't want to admit defeat in light of my superior evidence. Methinks comparisons to DarkStar lean more toward your way. Nothing new, really... http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 03:54:42 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D92BD42.D12B88A3@daltonator.net> -------- Lord Edam de Fromage wrote: [snip] > > > Do their KE shields work against forcefields and photons? > > > > I'm not arguing YOUR theory, Edam. > > concession accepted. > > FC cannot be used as proof/notproof of Borg KE shields. > Isn't one stabbed? -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:34:18 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D93369B.7060101@shaw.ca> -------- Dalton wrote: > Lord Edam de Fromage wrote: >>>>Do their KE shields work against forcefields and photons? >>> >>>I'm not arguing YOUR theory, Edam. >> >>concession accepted. >> >>FC cannot be used as proof/notproof of Borg KE shields. > > Isn't one stabbed? One has its arm chopped off. The only reason FC can't be used to prove Borg don't have KE shields is cause you can't prove a negative. Fortunately, ASVS is set up so you don't have to do that. All negatives are assumed true until evidence is found to the contrary. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:57:18 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D93588E.CAF59D@daltonator.net> -------- "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > Dalton wrote: > > Lord Edam de Fromage wrote: > > >>>>Do their KE shields work against forcefields and photons? > >>> > >>>I'm not arguing YOUR theory, Edam. > >> > >>concession accepted. > >> > >>FC cannot be used as proof/notproof of Borg KE shields. > > > > Isn't one stabbed? > > One has its arm chopped off. The only reason FC can't be used to prove > Borg don't have KE shields is cause you can't prove a negative. > > Fortunately, ASVS is set up so you don't have to do that. All negatives > are assumed true until evidence is found to the contrary. Guilty until proven innocent? -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:51:56 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D9364EF.1070800@shaw.ca> -------- Dalton wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>Dalton wrote: >>>Lord Edam de Fromage wrote: >>>>>>Do their KE shields work against forcefields and photons? >>>>> >>>>>I'm not arguing YOUR theory, Edam. >>>> >>>>concession accepted. >>>> >>>>FC cannot be used as proof/notproof of Borg KE shields. >>> >>>Isn't one stabbed? >> >>One has its arm chopped off. The only reason FC can't be used to prove >>Borg don't have KE shields is cause you can't prove a negative. >> >>Fortunately, ASVS is set up so you don't have to do that. All negatives >>are assumed true until evidence is found to the contrary. > > Guilty until proven innocent? In a sense. Any theory is considered wrong until evidence can be presented for it. This prevents the dreaded, 'Prove me wrong!' arguments we've seen so much of in the past. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:31:46 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D9398E2.12C9222B@daltonator.net> -------- "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > Dalton wrote: > > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > >>Dalton wrote: > >>>Lord Edam de Fromage wrote: > > >>>>>>Do their KE shields work against forcefields and photons? > >>>>> > >>>>>I'm not arguing YOUR theory, Edam. > >>>> > >>>>concession accepted. > >>>> > >>>>FC cannot be used as proof/notproof of Borg KE shields. > >>> > >>>Isn't one stabbed? > >> > >>One has its arm chopped off. The only reason FC can't be used to prove > >>Borg don't have KE shields is cause you can't prove a negative. > >> > >>Fortunately, ASVS is set up so you don't have to do that. All negatives > >>are assumed true until evidence is found to the contrary. > > > > Guilty until proven innocent? > > In a sense. Any theory is considered wrong until evidence can be > presented for it. This prevents the dreaded, 'Prove me wrong!' arguments > we've seen so much of in the past. I love those. See a lot of that with creationism... -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:56:52 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D939E59.5030309@shaw.ca> -------- Dalton wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>>Guilty until proven innocent? >> >>In a sense. Any theory is considered wrong until evidence can be >>presented for it. This prevents the dreaded, 'Prove me wrong!' arguments >>we've seen so much of in the past. > > I love those. I'm going to guess your definition of love involves hitting people with pick-axes. > See a lot of that with creationism... Oh yeah. It's the staple of Pseudo-Science. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:24:08 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D93A528.AB173B57@daltonator.net> -------- "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > Dalton wrote: > > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > >>>Guilty until proven innocent? > >> > >>In a sense. Any theory is considered wrong until evidence can be > >>presented for it. This prevents the dreaded, 'Prove me wrong!' arguments > >>we've seen so much of in the past. > > > > I love those. > > I'm going to guess your definition of love involves hitting people with > pick-axes. You're psychic! > > See a lot of that with creationism... > > Oh yeah. It's the staple of Pseudo-Science. Heavily employed by several, certain, nameless masturdebaters. -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:55:41 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D93BA33.30001@shaw.ca> -------- Dalton wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>>I love those. >> >>I'm going to guess your definition of love involves hitting people with >>pick-axes. > > You're psychic! And I've got a great ass too. >>> See a lot of that with creationism... >> >>Oh yeah. It's the staple of Pseudo-Science. > > Heavily employed by several, certain, nameless masturdebaters. And no matter how many times you say, 'Proof?' they never get it. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:13:07 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D93BEB3.C0AF10C6@daltonator.net> -------- "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > Dalton wrote: > > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > >>>I love those. > >> > >>I'm going to guess your definition of love involves hitting people with > >>pick-axes. > > > > You're psychic! > > And I've got a great ass too. Which sense of the word "great"? > >>> See a lot of that with creationism... > >> > >>Oh yeah. It's the staple of Pseudo-Science. > > > > Heavily employed by several, certain, nameless masturdebaters. > > And no matter how many times you say, 'Proof?' they never get it. But they've already posted it! Psychically! Didn't you know? They have Transcend-level l33t p0w4rz. -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 03:23:56 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D93CEE3.9090800@shaw.ca> -------- Dalton wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>>You're psychic! >> >>And I've got a great ass too. > > Which sense of the word "great"? Great as in awesome, and roughly the size of an fully grown adult elephant. >>>>>See a lot of that with creationism... >>>> >>>>Oh yeah. It's the staple of Pseudo-Science. >>> >>>Heavily employed by several, certain, nameless masturdebaters. >> >>And no matter how many times you say, 'Proof?' they never get it. > > But they've already posted it! Psychically! Didn't you know? They have > Transcend-level l33t p0w4rz. What would our life be like if we had never met Transcend? C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:34:59 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D93EE03.70C99A50@daltonator.net> -------- "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > Dalton wrote: > > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > >>>You're psychic! > >> > >>And I've got a great ass too. > > > > Which sense of the word "great"? > > Great as in awesome, and roughly the size of an fully grown adult elephant. Nicely done, Mr. Two-Chairs. > >>>>>See a lot of that with creationism... > >>>> > >>>>Oh yeah. It's the staple of Pseudo-Science. > >>> > >>>Heavily employed by several, certain, nameless masturdebaters. > >> > >>And no matter how many times you say, 'Proof?' they never get it. > > > > But they've already posted it! Psychically! Didn't you know? They have > > Transcend-level l33t p0w4rz. > > What would our life be like if we had never met Transcend? Well, I wouldn't be training cats to fly X-Wings. -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:49:09 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D923D31.9000704@shaw.ca> -------- Wayne Poe wrote: > "Lord Edam de Fromage" <$mike$@trek-wars.info> wrote >>They have the illusion of being real bullets without being real > > They don't need to be really. If a holodeck can replicate exactly how a > bullet looks and acts and interacts with its surroundings; in other words, > if a holodeck is indeed capable of generating an exact representation of > what its called to do, then we know exactly what would happen to a Borg if > it was hit by an actual bullet. That's why they use the holodeck to test things. Cause the holodeck is an accurate representation of how the real world exists. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 23:26:49 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D927E79.6076B487@daltonator.net> -------- "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > Wayne Poe wrote: > > "Lord Edam de Fromage" <$mike$@trek-wars.info> wrote > > >>They have the illusion of being real bullets without being real > > > > They don't need to be really. If a holodeck can replicate exactly how a > > bullet looks and acts and interacts with its surroundings; in other words, > > if a holodeck is indeed capable of generating an exact representation of > > what its called to do, then we know exactly what would happen to a Borg if > > it was hit by an actual bullet. > > That's why they use the holodeck to test things. Cause the holodeck is > an accurate representation of how the real world exists. Hence why the Warp 10 tests were successful...but remember, they can't always predict consequences. -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 04:06:14 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D928755.8060406@shaw.ca> -------- Dalton wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>Wayne Poe wrote: >>>"Lord Edam de Fromage" wrote: >>>>They have the illusion of being real bullets without being real >>> >>>They don't need to be really. If a holodeck can replicate exactly how a >>>bullet looks and acts and interacts with its surroundings; in other words, >>>if a holodeck is indeed capable of generating an exact representation of >>>what its called to do, then we know exactly what would happen to a Borg if >>>it was hit by an actual bullet. >> >>That's why they use the holodeck to test things. Cause the holodeck is >>an accurate representation of how the real world exists. > > Hence why the Warp 10 tests were successful...but remember, they can't > always predict consequences. True. But I think, 'Gun go bang, Borg fall down.' is within their prediction capabilities. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:26:07 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D928C5F.691AEB28@daltonator.net> -------- "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > Dalton wrote: > > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > >>Wayne Poe wrote: > >>>"Lord Edam de Fromage" wrote: > > >>>>They have the illusion of being real bullets without being real > >>> > >>>They don't need to be really. If a holodeck can replicate exactly how a > >>>bullet looks and acts and interacts with its surroundings; in other words, > >>>if a holodeck is indeed capable of generating an exact representation of > >>>what its called to do, then we know exactly what would happen to a Borg if > >>>it was hit by an actual bullet. > >> > >>That's why they use the holodeck to test things. Cause the holodeck is > >>an accurate representation of how the real world exists. > > > > Hence why the Warp 10 tests were successful...but remember, they can't > > always predict consequences. > > True. But I think, 'Gun go bang, Borg fall down.' is within their > prediction capabilities. Well, duh. -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 05:46:36 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D929ECD.80507@shaw.ca> -------- Dalton wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>>>That's why they use the holodeck to test things. Cause the holodeck is >>>>an accurate representation of how the real world exists. >>> >>>Hence why the Warp 10 tests were successful...but remember, they can't >>>always predict consequences. >> >>True. But I think, 'Gun go bang, Borg fall down.' is within their >>prediction capabilities. > > Well, duh. Hey, why just be right when you can be smarmy too? C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:01:28 -0400 Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D92A2B8.7052CB05@daltonator.net> -------- "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > Dalton wrote: > > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > > >>>>That's why they use the holodeck to test things. Cause the holodeck is > >>>>an accurate representation of how the real world exists. > >>> > >>>Hence why the Warp 10 tests were successful...but remember, they can't > >>>always predict consequences. > >> > >>True. But I think, 'Gun go bang, Borg fall down.' is within their > >>prediction capabilities. > > > > Well, duh. > > Hey, why just be right when you can be smarmy too? :D -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net "All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." --"The Last Continent", Terry Pratchett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 02:26:28 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3d89359d.103229448@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On 18 Sep 2002 23:37:49 GMT, nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) wrote: >>On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:25:03 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" >> wrote: >> >>>DarkStar wrote: >>>> "Doomriser" wrote: >>>>>"The Baron" wrote: >>> >>>>>>You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, >>>>>>especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. >>>>>>What is relevant is that they DO do it. >>>>> >>>>>If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by any, >>>>>every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) >>>> >>>> We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. >>>> http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html >>> >>>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by >>>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. >>> >>Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been >>destroyed? >> >>Oh wait, no. >> > >RIKER (looking at plants in holodeck): I didn't believe these could be so real. > >DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies to an >energy beam, then back to the original pattern again... > >(Encounter at Farpoint) > >(Leech shoots Whalen in the chest. He collapses to the floor) >WHALEN (whispering in disbelief): But... they're not real. >BEVERLY: This man has been shot. If we don't get him to Sickbay, he'll die. > >(The Big Goodbye) > >Note the second carefully. Nothing there is conclusive, it's all ambiguous... The second could simply be a forcefield shaped bullet hitting him, doesn't have to be a physical bullet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 19 Sep 2002 03:13:28 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <20020918231328.05505.00005332@mb-fc.aol.com> -------- >On 18 Sep 2002 23:37:49 GMT, nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir >Nitram) wrote: > >>>On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:25:03 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" >>> wrote: >>> >>>>DarkStar wrote: >>>>> "Doomriser" wrote: >>>>>>"The Baron" wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, >>>>>>>especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. >>>>>>>What is relevant is that they DO do it. >>>>>> >>>>>>If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by >any, >>>>>>every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) >>>>> >>>>> We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. >>>>> http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html >>>> >>>>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by >>>>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. >>>> >>>Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been >>>destroyed? >>> >>>Oh wait, no. >>> >> >>RIKER (looking at plants in holodeck): I didn't believe these could be so >real. >> >>DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies to >an >>energy beam, then back to the original pattern again... >> >>(Encounter at Farpoint) >> >>(Leech shoots Whalen in the chest. He collapses to the floor) >>WHALEN (whispering in disbelief): But... they're not real. >>BEVERLY: This man has been shot. If we don't get him to Sickbay, he'll die. >> >>(The Big Goodbye) >> >>Note the second carefully. > >Nothing there is conclusive, it's all ambiguous... >The second could simply be a forcefield shaped bullet hitting him, >doesn't have to be a physical bullet. > BEVERLY: This man has been shot. (Taken from the above) -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:44:08 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3d8a28f1.165530779@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On 19 Sep 2002 03:13:28 GMT, nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) wrote: >>On 18 Sep 2002 23:37:49 GMT, nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir >>Nitram) wrote: >> >>>>On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:25:03 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>DarkStar wrote: >>>>>> "Doomriser" wrote: >>>>>>>"The Baron" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, >>>>>>>>especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. >>>>>>>>What is relevant is that they DO do it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by >>any, >>>>>>>every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) >>>>>> >>>>>> We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. >>>>>> http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html >>>>> >>>>>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by >>>>>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. >>>>> >>>>Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been >>>>destroyed? >>>> >>>>Oh wait, no. >>>> >>> >>>RIKER (looking at plants in holodeck): I didn't believe these could be so >>real. >>> >>>DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies to >>an >>>energy beam, then back to the original pattern again... >>> >>>(Encounter at Farpoint) >>> >>>(Leech shoots Whalen in the chest. He collapses to the floor) >>>WHALEN (whispering in disbelief): But... they're not real. >>>BEVERLY: This man has been shot. If we don't get him to Sickbay, he'll die. >>> >>>(The Big Goodbye) >>> >>>Note the second carefully. >> >>Nothing there is conclusive, it's all ambiguous... >>The second could simply be a forcefield shaped bullet hitting him, >>doesn't have to be a physical bullet. >> > >BEVERLY: This man has been shot. > >(Taken from the above) Can you not be shot by a bullet shaped forcefield? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 19 Sep 2002 20:42:40 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <20020919164240.10797.00007378@mb-cu.aol.com> -------- >On 19 Sep 2002 03:13:28 GMT, nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir >Nitram) wrote: > >>>On 18 Sep 2002 23:37:49 GMT, nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir >>>Nitram) wrote: >>> >>>>>On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:25:03 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>DarkStar wrote: >>>>>>> "Doomriser" wrote: >>>>>>>>"The Baron" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>You ask me to explain how the Borg do it, however that's irrelevant, >>>>>>>>>especially as it's alien tech which is never explained. >>>>>>>>>What is relevant is that they DO do it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If you say so, Baron. Despite the fact that we've seen them killed by >>>any, >>>>>>>>every, and all KE-based weapons (e.g. guns, knives) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. >>>>>>> http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html >>>>>> >>>>>>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by >>>>>>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. >>>>>> >>>>>Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been >>>>>destroyed? >>>>> >>>>>Oh wait, no. >>>>> >>>> >>>>RIKER (looking at plants in holodeck): I didn't believe these could be so >>>real. >>>> >>>>DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies >to >>>an >>>>energy beam, then back to the original pattern again... >>>> >>>>(Encounter at Farpoint) >>>> >>>>(Leech shoots Whalen in the chest. He collapses to the floor) >>>>WHALEN (whispering in disbelief): But... they're not real. >>>>BEVERLY: This man has been shot. If we don't get him to Sickbay, he'll >die. >>>> >>>>(The Big Goodbye) >>>> >>>>Note the second carefully. >>> >>>Nothing there is conclusive, it's all ambiguous... >>>The second could simply be a forcefield shaped bullet hitting him, >>>doesn't have to be a physical bullet. >>> >> >>BEVERLY: This man has been shot. >> >>(Taken from the above) > >Can you not be shot by a bullet shaped forcefield? > Of course. But there's no reason to assume such forcefield-bullets would act wildly differently from real bullets. -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:04:06 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D8A11A3.2010602@shaw.ca> -------- The Baron wrote: > Sir Nitram wrote: >>RIKER (looking at plants in holodeck): I didn't believe these could be so real. >> >>DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies to an >>energy beam, then back to the original pattern again... >> >>(Encounter at Farpoint) >> >>(Leech shoots Whalen in the chest. He collapses to the floor) >>WHALEN (whispering in disbelief): But... they're not real. >>BEVERLY: This man has been shot. If we don't get him to Sickbay, he'll die. >> >>(The Big Goodbye) >> >>Note the second carefully. > > Nothing there is conclusive, it's all ambiguous... Bullshit. Data says much of it is real. You're wrong, I'm right. Sir Nitram's quotes prove that. > The second could simply be a forcefield shaped bullet hitting him, > doesn't have to be a physical bullet. And you could be driven mad from syphilis. The facts remain: 1.) We have evidence that material on the holodeck can be real. Wesley getting wet. Picard has removed material (I'd look up the exact episode by my roommate packed away his Nit-Pickers Guide. When he gets back from Virginia I'll ask for it. Be prepared to wait about a week.) 2.) We have a direct quote that say much of the material is real. 3.) You lost. Loser. Loser. Loser. What do you have? Your unending desire to prove Borg can adapt to KE, no matter what evidence you have to ignore. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:48:34 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3d8a290a.165555418@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:04:06 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >The Baron wrote: >> Sir Nitram wrote: > >>>RIKER (looking at plants in holodeck): I didn't believe these could be so real. >>> >>>DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies to an >>>energy beam, then back to the original pattern again... >>> >>>(Encounter at Farpoint) >>> >>>(Leech shoots Whalen in the chest. He collapses to the floor) >>>WHALEN (whispering in disbelief): But... they're not real. >>>BEVERLY: This man has been shot. If we don't get him to Sickbay, he'll die. >>> >>>(The Big Goodbye) >>> >>>Note the second carefully. >> >> Nothing there is conclusive, it's all ambiguous... > >Bullshit. Data says much of it is real. You're wrong, I'm right. Sir >Nitram's quotes prove that. We also have the Moriarty episodes stating over and over again that holodeck objects cannot exist outside the holodeck. >> The second could simply be a forcefield shaped bullet hitting him, >> doesn't have to be a physical bullet. > >And you could be driven mad from syphilis. The facts remain: > >1.) We have evidence that material on the holodeck can be real. Wesley >getting wet. Picard has removed material (I'd look up the exact episode >by my roommate packed away his Nit-Pickers Guide. When he gets back from >Virginia I'll ask for it. Be prepared to wait about a week.) We have seen people leave the holodeck and a short time later lose cohesion and dematerialise, the Wesley and Picard examples can simply be taken as not been shown for long enough for the holodeck matter to dematerialise, because we know it does. >2.) We have a direct quote that say much of the material is real. Reality surely depends on perception? It is real when it's in the holodeck, when it leaves, a short time later it dematerialises. This is canon and is not contradicted. >3.) You lost. Loser. Loser. Loser. Well, no. >What do you have? Your unending desire to prove Borg can adapt to KE, no >matter what evidence you have to ignore. I don't ignore evidence, I explain it a different way to you, that's all... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:44:55 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D8A3755.9010100@shaw.ca> -------- The Baron wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>>Nothing there is conclusive, it's all ambiguous... >> >>Bullshit. Data says much of it is real. You're wrong, I'm right. Sir >>Nitram's quotes prove that. > > We also have the Moriarty episodes stating over and over again that > holodeck objects cannot exist outside the holodeck. Two points: 1.a) We have direct quotes that the matter is real. 1.b) We have observed matter leaving the holodeck. 1.c) So we have Quotes vs. Quotes and Observation. And guess who wins? 2.) The Tommy Gun, the Borgs, and the Bullets were all in the Holodeck. So your points about matter not being able to leave the Holodeck is immaterial. >>>The second could simply be a forcefield shaped bullet hitting him, >>>doesn't have to be a physical bullet. >> >>And you could be driven mad from syphilis. The facts remain: >> >>1.) We have evidence that material on the holodeck can be real. Wesley >>getting wet. Picard has removed material (I'd look up the exact episode >>by my roommate packed away his Nit-Pickers Guide. When he gets back from >>Virginia I'll ask for it. Be prepared to wait about a week.) > > We have seen people leave the holodeck and a short time later lose > cohesion and dematerialise, Those were not interacting with the people. > the Wesley and Picard examples can simply be taken as not been shown > for long enough for the holodeck matter to dematerialise, because we > know it does. Wesley was wet when he got to the Bridge. >>2.) We have a direct quote that say much of the material is real. > > Reality surely depends on perception? It is real when it's in the > holodeck, when it leaves, a short time later it dematerialises. This > is canon and is not contradicted. It's contradicted by canon. >>3.) You lost. Loser. Loser. Loser. > > Well, no. Yes, actually. >>What do you have? Your unending desire to prove Borg can adapt to KE, no >>matter what evidence you have to ignore. > > I don't ignore evidence, I explain it a different way to you, that's > all... "Nothing there is conclusive, it's all ambiguous... " No explanation. Just dismissiveness. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:38:30 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D890E79.50907@shaw.ca> -------- The Baron wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>>We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. >>>http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html >> >>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by >>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. > > Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been > destroyed? > > Oh wait, no. Threw out, not carried out. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 02:27:00 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3d8935e2.103298495@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:38:30 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >The Baron wrote: >> "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > >>>>We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. >>>>http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html >>> >>>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by >>>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. >> >> Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been >> destroyed? >> >> Oh wait, no. > >Threw out, not carried out. > rofl, so at the point you exit the holodeck it replicates an actual object in your hands? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:36:13 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D897E74.3010207@shaw.ca> -------- The Baron wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>>>>We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. >>>>>http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html >>>> >>>>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by >>>>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. >>> >>>Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been >>>destroyed? >>> >>>Oh wait, no. >> >>Threw out, not carried out. > > rofl, so at the point you exit the holodeck it replicates an actual > object in your hands? No, that's not what I'm saying. Perhaps you should put down the inflatable sheep while you're posting. The holodeck produces an actual object as soon as you interact with it. When you throw it it becomes fake, unless it interacts with another real object. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JJ" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:10:17 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: -------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Newsgroups: alt.startrek.vs.starwars Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 2:36 AM Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations > The holodeck produces an actual object as soon as you interact with it. > When you throw it it becomes fake, unless it interacts with another real > object. > There is another alternative based on the evidence given. Some of the more simplistic substances can be replicated by the Holodeck, (water, 60's era bullets) while more complex substances rely on holograms and forcefields (chairs and people). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:54:26 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3d8a2a57.165889058@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:36:13 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >The Baron wrote: >> "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > >>>>>>We've never seen non-holographic bullets fired at the Borg. >>>>>>http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html >>>>> >>>>>Those are real bullets. Real matter created by replicators, moved by >>>>>tractor beams. Else Wesley couldn't have gotten wet. >>>> >>>>Else the book Picard threw out of the holodeck wouldn't have been >>>>destroyed? >>>> >>>>Oh wait, no. >>> >>>Threw out, not carried out. >> >> rofl, so at the point you exit the holodeck it replicates an actual >> object in your hands? > >No, that's not what I'm saying. Perhaps you should put down the >inflatable sheep while you're posting. > >The holodeck produces an actual object as soon as you interact with it. >When you throw it it becomes fake, unless it interacts with another real >object. > That's needlessly complex, let's observe the facts. Wesley leaves the holodeck wet, stands there for ~20 seconds. Picard is hit by a snowball, we see it for ~10 seconds after. Holodeck characters leave the holodeck (The Big Goodbye) and dematerialise after ~40 seconds. Picard throws a book out of the holodeck and it dematerialises instantly. Note however that this was not on a real holodeck, it was on Moriarty's recreation holodeck so nothing on there can be taken as what would actually happen. So what we know is that holodeck matter can exist outside the holodeck, for ~40 seconds, and as the other instances of holodeck matter being outside the holodeck are for shorter periods of time, they can be discounted - clearly the longest time matter which has not interacted with anything 'real' exists outside the holodeck should be the standard we go by. So basically, there's no need for your explanation of two different types of holodeck matter, replicated and fake, because it can all be explained by being fake. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 21:12:32 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D8A3DCE.9000907@shaw.ca> -------- The Baron wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>>>Threw out, not carried out. >>> >>>rofl, so at the point you exit the holodeck it replicates an actual >>>object in your hands? >> >>No, that's not what I'm saying. Perhaps you should put down the >>inflatable sheep while you're posting. >> >>The holodeck produces an actual object as soon as you interact with it. >>When you throw it it becomes fake, unless it interacts with another real >>object. > > That's needlessly complex, let's observe the facts. It fits the facts. All the facts. > Wesley leaves the holodeck wet, stands there for ~20 seconds. He's wet when he gets to the bridge. Remember Picard's disapproving look? > Picard is hit by a snowball, we see it for ~10 seconds after. And as someone already pointed out, it started to melt. > Holodeck characters leave the holodeck (The Big Goodbye) and > dematerialise after ~40 seconds. 40 seconds? I don't think so. They step out, the one says something, then they start to disappear. They might have started to walk away first. But it wasn't 40 seconds. > Picard throws a book out of the holodeck and it dematerialises > instantly. Note however that this was not on a real holodeck, it was > on Moriarty's recreation holodeck so nothing on there can be taken as > what would actually happen. But it was a simulation that had to be perfect. Why would it have such a huge imperfection. Your conclusion is based on your recolection of the facts, and not the actual facts. > So basically, there's no need for your explanation of two different > types of holodeck matter, replicated and fake, because it can all be > explained by being fake. Except for Data's _DIRECT FUCKING QUOTE_! C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swineherd@7dof.org (The Baron) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:11:53 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3d8a4ba2.174413373@news.freeserve.co.uk> -------- On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 21:12:32 GMT, "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >The Baron wrote: >> "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: > >>>>>Threw out, not carried out. >>>> >>>>rofl, so at the point you exit the holodeck it replicates an actual >>>>object in your hands? >>> >>>No, that's not what I'm saying. Perhaps you should put down the >>>inflatable sheep while you're posting. >>> >>>The holodeck produces an actual object as soon as you interact with it. >>>When you throw it it becomes fake, unless it interacts with another real >>>object. >> >> That's needlessly complex, let's observe the facts. > >It fits the facts. All the facts. > >> Wesley leaves the holodeck wet, stands there for ~20 seconds. > >He's wet when he gets to the bridge. Remember Picard's disapproving look? > >> Picard is hit by a snowball, we see it for ~10 seconds after. > >And as someone already pointed out, it started to melt. > >> Holodeck characters leave the holodeck (The Big Goodbye) and >> dematerialise after ~40 seconds. > >40 seconds? I don't think so. They step out, the one says something, >then they start to disappear. They might have started to walk away >first. But it wasn't 40 seconds. > >> Picard throws a book out of the holodeck and it dematerialises >> instantly. Note however that this was not on a real holodeck, it was >> on Moriarty's recreation holodeck so nothing on there can be taken as >> what would actually happen. > >But it was a simulation that had to be perfect. Why would it have such a >huge imperfection. > > > >Your conclusion is based on your recolection of the facts, and not the >actual facts. > >> So basically, there's no need for your explanation of two different >> types of holodeck matter, replicated and fake, because it can all be >> explained by being fake. > >Except for Data's _DIRECT FUCKING QUOTE_! Ok, I concede. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:59:06 GMT Subject: Re: ST First Contact - observations Message-ID: <3D8A56CA.7070505@shaw.ca> -------- The Baron wrote: > "C.S.Strowbridge" wrote: >>>So basically, there's no need for your explanation of two different >>>types of holodeck matter, replicated and fake, because it can all be >>>explained by being fake. >> >>Except for Data's _DIRECT FUCKING QUOTE_! >