---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:07:14 -0400 Subject: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <3d231328_2@news.cybersurf.net> -------- Just exploring this ludicrious sensation sweeping the SB baby nation. I'm looking for examples of A. Supposed times where the E-nil is really powerful (i.e. taking planetkiller beams, being hit by sound waves in outer space, being able to wipe out all life on a [poisoned, pop. 15] planet etc...) B. Times where it is demonstrated that the E-nil is not so powerful ('powerful' 97 MT explosion, fear of 20th century AAMs, etc... Thanks, -- -=Doomriser "There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages." -- Richard Lederer, "Anguished English" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:44:21 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <3d2329ef_1@news.cybersurf.net> -------- "Doomriser" wrote in message news:3d231328_2@news.cybersurf.net... > Just exploring this ludicrious sensation sweeping the SB baby nation. I'm > looking for examples of > > A. Supposed times where the E-nil is really powerful (i.e. taking > planetkiller beams, being hit by sound waves in outer space, being able to > wipe out all life on a [poisoned, pop. 15] planet etc...) > I just found a great list from...you guessed it...E1701! I haven't seen all of these before so I don't have all the rebuttals but I'll try later. Sigh... I'm gonna have to sit down and list the episodes, one by one, pointing out every example... again... aren't I? "The Cage" - Lee Kelso states that the Enterprise could bring to bear enough firepower to "blast half a continent". Even assuming a continent the size of Australia, and taking a minimalist approach to the defination of "blast", that's a lot of firepower, generated by the Enterprise's laser weapons, which are later stated to be vastly inferior to phasers. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - Enterprise travels to edge of the galaxy for the first time - from Earth, the nearest possible edge, heading straight up, is something close to 2,500 LY. This episode is also notable for Spock ordering the helmsman to engage "time-warp drives, take us into hyperspace!" "The Naked Time" - A risky cold-start of the ship's impulse engines flings the ship into reverse at "a speed greater than is possible in normal space", and back in time 71 hours. Earlier, Scotty states that if their intermix formula is wrong, they'll "go up in the biggest blast since the last star around these parts went supernova." "Balance of Terror" - Already remarked on, a plasma weapon vaporizes an asteroid that is at least 2 miles across, in the single shot. Sorry Phalanx, the outpost's shields do fail after the second hit. The third vapes the asteroid, and leaves only a smattering of brittle remneants of the hardest substance known to their science. Bare minimum, 180 GT. Enterprise survives the first hit, which chases them at greater than warp 8, and is able to manuever. A second hit brings down their shields, and a nuke at point-blank range causes damage to the phaser control room. Total casualties at the end of the battle: Romulan ship and all hands, phaser specialist Robert Tomlinson. "Arena" - A recording from Cestus III states that the Gorn approached at sublight along standard Federation approach lanes, before knocking out the planet's phaser batteries in their first salvo. "The Alternative Factor" - the entrance of the Lazarus from an antimatter universe generates a violent space-time ripple which Starfleet Command states unequivacably was "felt in all quadrants of the galaxy, and beyond." "Tomorrow is Yesterday" - an accidental slingshot around a black hole throws the Enterprise back to 1967. While cruising through the upper atmosphere in excess of Mach 1, Spock notes with little concern that if Christopher fires his payload of nuclear-tipped air-to-air missiles at the unshielded Enterprise, they "could cause some damage." The Enterprise then locks the jet in a tractor beam, but even after dropping to lowest power, the tractor causes the plane to fragment. "A Taste of Armageddon" - The computers on the surface list the Enterprise as having been destroyed by a tricobalt warhead, and the landing party killed when the enemy "materialized fusion bombs over the city." When held hostage, Kirk declares that he'll show Anan 7 what devestation really is, and orders Scotty to carry out General Order 24 in two hours. When Anan asks what he's done, Kirk states that if he isn't released by that deadline, the Enterprise will level the surface of the planet and kill everyone on the planet. The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times louder than a 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of range of the disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk reports back in, having destroyed the planetary computers. "Errand of Mercy" - When trying to convince the Organians to fight against the Klingons, he tells that that they will become slaves of the Empire. The head counciler retorts that if they resist, the Klingons might simply destroy the planet, and be spared the trouble. When the Organians finally decide to intervene, as the Klingon and Federation fleets gather in the system, the counciler states that they cannot permit a war between the Klingons and the Federation, because the conflict in their system would almost certainly result in the destruction of their planet, and would cost far too many lives overall. "Friday's Child" - When the Capellans turn on him, the Klingon agent declares that with the Enterprise off chasing a phony distress call, that his ship could "burn this planet to a cinder." Kirk, Spock, and McCoy take him deadly seriously. "The Doomsday Machine" - A planet eater is going around chopping planets into rubble with a pure antiproton force beam, and devouring the rubble as fuel. Commodore Matt Decker (father of TMP's Willard Decker) in command of the USS Constellation, attacks the device, which is made of pure neutronium. When his ship is crippled making the direct approach, after exhausting phaser banks and emptying the torpedo magazines, he beams his crew down to the class-M planet in the system, fully expecting the thing to eat his ship. Instead, it ignores the ship, and eats the planet. When Enterprise arrives, under Decker's control, it makes several more direct attacks, and is hit repeatedly with the same weapon used to chop up the planets. Two of those hits occurr after the shields fail, and there is no visible hull damage (as there is on Constellation). When Decker's shuttle explodes inside the maw, there is a slight power drop. So they toss in the entire Constellation, with the fusion impulse reactors rigged to blow. When the planetkiller eats the Constellation, and the reactors cook off at "97.3 megatons", it is stopped dead in space, but is otherwise undamaged. "The Changling" - Nomad "sterilizes" the entire Malurian star system, in very short order. The population of 4 billion is exterminated. When it attacks the Enterprise, each of the three shots it fires are stated to rate as equivalent to 90 photon torpedoes, and the 1.5 meter probe easily withstands a single torpedo strike. The third shot (equivalent to a total of 270 photon torpedoes) brings the Enterprise's shields down. "Mirror, Mirror" - In the mirror universe, Kirk is ordered to exterminate the entire Halkan population. The first part involves utterly destroying their cities the moment they come over the horizon, followed by the extermination of the entire rest of the populace, so that the Empire can mine the dilithium there itself. "The Deadly Years" - the Enterprise strays into the Romulan neutral zone, and is attacked by the same class of Bird of Prey as in "Balance of Terror" - it withstands multiple strikes from the plasma weapon, then is transmitted an order to surrender. Kirk broadcasts a clear message to Starfleet, stating that he will self-destruct the ship using a newly installed Corbomite Device, which will instantly destroy *everything* within 200,000 kilometers, and warns that starships should avoid the entire area for at least several weeks after the blast. "Bread and Circuses" - once again, captured by the locals, Kirk invokes General Order 24, which scares the shit out of Captain Merrick, who was a classmate of Kirk's at the Academy. Instead, Scotty manages to cause a planet-wide power failure as a distraction to rescue Kirk. "Journey to Babel" - the Enterprise is sabotaged by an Orion pirate posing as an Andorian aide. Trapped at sublight, the Enterprise is attacked by an Orion pirate ship that remains at warp 8. When the opportunity arises, despite remaining at sublight, Enterprise fires on the Orion, crippling it in the first volley. It then self-destructs to prevent capture. "Obsession" - Kirk finally lures the cloud-creature back to its home planet, Tycho IV. To lure it, they bait it to the surface with human blood, then set a charge of one-ounce of TOS uber-antimatter... the resulting explosion tears the atmosphere of the planet off. "The Immunity Syndrome" - investigating the destruction of the USS Intrepid, and wiped out billions of people in Gamma 7A, they discover an 11,000 mile-long space-ameoba, which consumes energy, both mechanical and biological. Spock discovers that the plasma within the cell is largely gelatinous, with a liquid core near the center and nucleus. The Enterprise persues Spock's shuttle into the heart of the creature, and plants a bomb. The resulting explosion virtually atomizes the cell. "A Piece of the Action" - Enterprise uses ship phasers on stun to knock out an entire block's worth of fighting mobsters in one fell swoop. Fun side note, Oxmyx tells Kirk to meet up with his boys at "the yellow fire plug at the end of the street." It takes Scotty less than 5 seconds to pinpoint the exact location... "By Any Other Name" - The Enterprise's second trip through the galactic barrier, on a beeline for Andromeda. "Patterns of Force" - when tracked by an incoming thermonuke at warp (both at warp speeds, moving towards each other), Enterprise calmly blows it away with a phaser shot. "The Ultimate Computer" - during the final wargames exercise, M-5 goes bezerk. It suddenly jumps to warp 4, and strafes the fleet which is at sublight, with full phasers. The opposing ships, who's shields have been jacked down to 10% normal, take damage. Enterprise then pulls a tight 180, and corckscrews through the fleet formation at warp 7. Starship Excalibur takes repeated hits, and is declared dead - the entire crew is dead, but the ship itself is perfectly intact. Commodore Wesely pulls the rest of the ships back, and prepares to go in at full power, and destroy the rogue Enterprise, and they also jump to warp to engage. "The Omega Glory" - on the ground, using a single phaser pistol and a handful of power packs, kills *thousands* of charging barbarian hordes easily. To save the town from the oncoming horde, he asks Kirk for four phaser pistols and three extra power packs each. "They sacrificed hundreds of warriors, just to lure us out into the open," he says, "then they came, and they came, and they came. We cut down thousands of them, and still they came." It's worth noting that the barbarians in this case did possess archers and basic smoothbore muskets... "Elaan of Troyus" - The Enterprise is sabotaged by one of the Dohlman's guards, who is in the pay of the Klingons. They are stuck at sublight, trying to fend off a Klingon ship which remains at warp. On emergency power only, they manage to maintain the shields for several passes of the Klingon battlecruiser. Then they find out the Dohlman's necklace is made of raw dilithium, and giving them to Scotty, five minutes later, they pull up partial main power, jump to warp, and cripple the Klingon ship with their opening barrage. "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" - Third time through the galactic barrier - they apparently got so far from the Milky Way before Larry Marvick was stopped, that they required extremely precise navigation to return. "For the World is Hollow, And I Have Touched the Sky" - The Enterprise is diverted to destroy an asteroid on a collision course with Daran V. The Asteroid ship Yonada, which they continue to believe they can easily destroy if need-be, is large enough that from the interior, it resembles a planetary surface. Producing the title, at one point, a man staggers in, and says, "Even though it was forbidden, I climbed the western mountains. They have lied to us! For the world is hollow, and I have touched the sky!" "Day of the Dove" - Fourth trip through the galactic barrier... "That Which Survives" - The Enterprise is hurled some 990.7 light-years from the planet where the landing party is stranded. The trip damaged the Enterprise's engines, and Spock notes that at their maximum sustainable warp, Warp 8.4, it will take 11 hours to return to the planet. "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" - Under the control of Bele, the Enterprise travels to Cheron, 90,000 light-years distant, in under two days. "Whom Gods Destroy" - the planet is shielded, and Kirk and Spock are trapped within the penal colony. Scotty states that the Enterprise can batter down the shields, but that the backwash would destroy everything on the surface, even if the firing point is on the opposite side of the planet, where the shield is weakest. In the meantime, Garth shows off a chemical explosive - a piece smaller than a grain of sand vaporizes an Orion slave girl, and generates a sizable earthquake. Garth states that if he drops the 20 oz bottle of the stuff, that it would vaporize the entire planet. cool guy covered TMP. I tried to get a screen capture from the DVD version of the asteroid scene in the wormhole, however, the torpedo dwindles from view several second before it impacts and shatters the asteroid. The stated mass of the asteroid is in useless units... unless someone can figure out what the hell "Mass, .2" means... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pablo" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:56:11 -0500 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Doomriser" wrote in message news:3d2329ef_1@news.cybersurf.net... > "Doomriser" wrote in message > news:3d231328_2@news.cybersurf.net... > > Just exploring this ludicrious sensation sweeping the SB baby nation. I'm > > looking for examples of > > > > A. Supposed times where the E-nil is really powerful (i.e. taking > > planetkiller beams, being hit by sound waves in outer space, being able to > > wipe out all life on a [poisoned, pop. 15] planet etc...) > > > I just found a great list from...you guessed it...E1701! I haven't seen all > of these before so I don't have all the rebuttals but I'll try later. > > "The Naked Time" - A risky cold-start of the ship's impulse engines flings > the ship into reverse at "a speed greater than is possible in normal space", > and back in time 71 hours. Earlier, Scotty states that if their intermix > formula is wrong, they'll "go up in the biggest blast since the last star > around these parts went supernova." Isn't that "The Naked Now?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iceberg Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 12:09:16 -0500 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <5tb6iucgrf20g6im00b12pc5no023oo7b4@4ax.com> -------- On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:56:11 -0500, "Pablo" wrote: > >"Doomriser" wrote in message >news:3d2329ef_1@news.cybersurf.net... >> "Doomriser" wrote in message >> news:3d231328_2@news.cybersurf.net... >> > Just exploring this ludicrious sensation sweeping the SB baby nation. >I'm >> > looking for examples of >> > >> > A. Supposed times where the E-nil is really powerful (i.e. taking >> > planetkiller beams, being hit by sound waves in outer space, being able >to >> > wipe out all life on a [poisoned, pop. 15] planet etc...) >> > >> I just found a great list from...you guessed it...E1701! I haven't seen >all >> of these before so I don't have all the rebuttals but I'll try later. >> >> "The Naked Time" - A risky cold-start of the ship's impulse engines flings >> the ship into reverse at "a speed greater than is possible in normal >space", >> and back in time 71 hours. Earlier, Scotty states that if their intermix >> formula is wrong, they'll "go up in the biggest blast since the last star >> around these parts went supernova." > >Isn't that "The Naked Now?" > No, "The Naked Now" is the TNG episode that shamelessly ripped this episode off. -- Ice "Sugar, spice and everything nice! Those were the ingredients used by Professor Utonium to create his perfect little girls! But he added a secret ingredient - CHEMICAL X! And so, the POWERPUFF GIRLS were born!" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:20:12 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <3d233253_2@news.cybersurf.net> -------- "Pablo" wrote in message news:afvabf$hiujd$1@ID-35195.news.dfncis.de... > > "The Naked Time" - A risky cold-start of the ship's impulse engines flings > > the ship into reverse at "a speed greater than is possible in normal > space", > > and back in time 71 hours. Earlier, Scotty states that if their intermix > > formula is wrong, they'll "go up in the biggest blast since the last star > > around these parts went supernova." > > Isn't that "The Naked Now?" > "The Naked Now" is the TNG sequel. -- -=Doomriser "There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages." -- Richard Lederer, "Anguished English" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:17:29 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <3d2331b4_2@news.cybersurf.net> -------- "Doomriser" wrote in message news:3d2329ef_1@news.cybersurf.net... > Sigh... I'm gonna have to sit down and list the episodes, one by one, > pointing out every example... again... aren't I? > For high Warp Speeds, we already know from TNG that repeated use of warp drives in an area severely degrades subspace in that area. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that subspace was 'cleaner' and 'clearer' in TOS, making travel faster. Later in TNG, it would take starships longer to traverse the same areas. > "The Cage" - Lee Kelso states that the Enterprise could bring to bear enough > firepower to "blast half a continent". Even assuming a continent the size of > Australia, and taking a minimalist approach to the defination of "blast", > that's a lot of firepower, generated by the Enterprise's laser weapons, > which are later stated to be vastly inferior to phasers. > Did he say "blast half a continent with one shot?" I don't think so. If you loaded up a Connie with 20th century nukes you should be able to blast half a continent. Let's check the dictionary: Blast (n.) 1.. very strong gust of wind or air. 2.. The effect of such a gust. 3.. A forcible stream of air, gas, or steam from an opening, especially one in a blast furnace to aid combustion. 4.. A sudden loud sound, especially one produced by a stream of forced air: a piercing blast from the steam whistle. 5.. The act of producing such a sound: gave a blast on his trumpet. 6.. A violent explosion, as of dynamite or a bomb. 7.. The violent effect of such an explosion, consisting of a wave of increased atmospheric pressure followed immediately by a wave of decreased pressure. 8.. An explosive charge. 9.. Botany. Any of several plant diseases of diverse causes, resulting in sudden death of buds, flowers, foliage, or young fruits. 10.. A destructive or damaging influence. 11.. A powerful hit, blow, or shot. 12.. A violent verbal assault or outburst: The candidate leveled a blast at her opponent. 13.. Slang. A highly exciting or pleasurable experience or event, such as a big party. The ability of a TOS Constitution to "blast" half-a continent, without us having seen this ability demonstrated, is not impressive. > "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - Enterprise travels to edge of the galaxy > for the first time - from Earth, the nearest possible edge, heading straight > up, is something close to 2,500 LY. This episode is also notable for Spock > ordering the helmsman to engage "time-warp drives, take us into hyperspace!" > This might explain something. Perhaps destructive effects from such a drive prevented its later use. > "The Naked Time" - A risky cold-start of the ship's impulse engines flings > the ship into reverse at "a speed greater than is possible in normal space", > and back in time 71 hours. Earlier, Scotty states that if their intermix > formula is wrong, they'll "go up in the biggest blast since the last star > around these parts went supernova." > Hyperbole. When we actually _see_ a Connie go up, it is 97 megatons. > "Balance of Terror" - Already remarked on, a plasma weapon vaporizes an > asteroid that is at least 2 miles across, in the single shot. Sorry Phalanx, > the outpost's shields do fail after the second hit. The third vapes the > asteroid, and leaves only a smattering of brittle remneants of the hardest > substance known to their science. Bare minimum, 180 GT. Enterprise survives > the first hit, which chases them at greater than warp 8, and is able to > manuever. A second hit brings down their shields, and a nuke at point-blank > range causes damage to the phaser control room. Total casualties at the end > of the battle: Romulan ship and all hands, phaser specialist Robert > Tomlinson. > Haven't seen this ep. I'd like to see proof of vapourization, and the calcs, and proof that the anti-ship shot from the BOP was the same as their strategic weapon. > "Arena" - A recording from Cestus III states that the Gorn approached at > sublight along standard Federation approach lanes, before knocking out the > planet's phaser batteries in their first salvo. > So? > "The Alternative Factor" - the entrance of the Lazarus from an antimatter > universe generates a violent space-time ripple which Starfleet Command > states unequivacably was "felt in all quadrants of the galaxy, and beyond." > So? > "Tomorrow is Yesterday" - an accidental slingshot around a black hole throws > the Enterprise back to 1967. While cruising through the upper atmosphere in > excess of Mach 1, Spock notes with little concern that if Christopher fires > his payload of nuclear-tipped air-to-air missiles at the unshielded > Enterprise, they "could cause some damage." The Enterprise then locks the > jet in a tractor beam, but even after dropping to lowest power, the tractor > causes the plane to fragment. > Ooh, it broke up an F-104 "Widoemaker," not known for durability, that was in a steep climb. Whoop-dee-doo. So kt-level AAMs posed a danger to the Enterprise's hull. > "A Taste of Armageddon" - The computers on the surface list the Enterprise > as having been destroyed by a tricobalt warhead, and the landing party > killed when the enemy "materialized fusion bombs over the city." When held > hostage, Kirk declares that he'll show Anan 7 what devestation really is, > and orders Scotty to carry out General Order 24 in two hours. When Anan asks > what he's done, Kirk states that if he isn't released by that deadline, the > Enterprise will level the surface of the planet and kill everyone on the > planet. Does Captain Bluff actually pull this off? No. > The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic > disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times louder than a > 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of range of the > disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk reports back in, > having destroyed the planetary computers. > More logically, Scotty is pulling out of range of the sonic disruptors, which shouldn't be able to touch the Ent in space! > "Errand of Mercy" - When trying to convince the Organians to fight against > the Klingons, he tells that that they will become slaves of the Empire. The > head counciler retorts that if they resist, the Klingons might simply > destroy the planet, and be spared the trouble. When the Organians finally > decide to intervene, as the Klingon and Federation fleets gather in the > system, the counciler states that they cannot permit a war between the > Klingons and the Federation, because the conflict in their system would > almost certainly result in the destruction of their planet, and would cost > far too many lives overall. > Do they actually do this? No? And what did they mean by destroy? Hell, pollution is "destroying" our planet right now! > "Friday's Child" - When the Capellans turn on him, the Klingon agent > declares that with the Enterprise off chasing a phony distress call, that > his ship could "burn this planet to a cinder." Kirk, Spock, and McCoy take > him deadly seriously. > Sure. He might have developed some new weapon. Yet, he didn't. > "The Doomsday Machine" - A planet eater is going around chopping planets > into rubble with a pure antiproton force beam, and devouring the rubble as > fuel. Commodore Matt Decker (father of TMP's Willard Decker) in command of > the USS Constellation, attacks the device, which is made of pure neutronium. > When his ship is crippled making the direct approach, after exhausting > phaser banks and emptying the torpedo magazines, he beams his crew down to > the class-M planet in the system, fully expecting the thing to eat his ship. All this proves is that an Acclamator is invulnerable to a TOS-Constitution. > Instead, it ignores the ship, and eats the planet. When Enterprise arrives, > under Decker's control, it makes several more direct attacks, and is hit > repeatedly with the same weapon used to chop up the planets. Two of those > hits occurr after the shields fail, and there is no visible hull damage (as > there is on Constellation). When Decker's shuttle explodes inside the maw, > there is a slight power drop. So they toss in the entire Constellation, with > the fusion impulse reactors rigged to blow. When the planetkiller eats the > Constellation, and the reactors cook off at "97.3 megatons", it is stopped > dead in space, but is otherwise undamaged. > 1. Notice how there was no way for 2 TOS Connies to damage the ship with their weapons and they had to blow one up inside the beast? This suggests that "97.3 megatons" is greater firepower than a TOS Connie can put out in any form. 2. How could that beam be the planetkiller beam? At that size, it would take decades to consume a planet instead of days. Furthermore, like other Trek weapons it probably relied on target matter interaction, and would get far less effect on shields and starship armour that dirt and rock and unrefined metals. > "The Changling" - Nomad "sterilizes" the entire Malurian star system, in > very short order. The population of 4 billion is exterminated. When it > attacks the Enterprise, each of the three shots it fires are stated to rate > as equivalent to 90 photon torpedoes, and the 1.5 meter probe easily > withstands a single torpedo strike. The third shot (equivalent to a total of > 270 photon torpedoes) brings the Enterprise's shields down. > Nomad is more powerful than the Enterprise. So? 270 PTs will bring down the shields of the Ent. So? We know from ST:V that a photon torpedo has the firepower of a grenade so this is not meaningful. > "Mirror, Mirror" - In the mirror universe, Kirk is ordered to exterminate > the entire Halkan population. The first part involves utterly destroying > their cities the moment they come over the horizon, followed by the > extermination of the entire rest of the populace, so that the Empire can > mine the dilithium there itself. > 1. This is a mirror universe Enterprise where Starfleet is more militaristic. 2. How big are these cities? 3. They could just drop dumb, free-fall nukes to accomplish these goals for the population clustered in cities. For the rest, there's no time limit stated here, so it doesn't mean anything. > Kirk broadcasts a clear message to > Starfleet, stating that he will self-destruct the ship using a newly > installed Corbomite Device, which will instantly destroy *everything* within > 200,000 kilometers, and warns that starships should avoid the entire area > for at least several weeks after the blast. > Funny, I seem to remember that as a BLUFF!!!!!!!! > "Bread and Circuses" - once again, captured by the locals, Kirk invokes > General Order 24, which scares the shit out of Captain Merrick, who was a > classmate of Kirk's at the Academy. Instead, Scotty manages to cause a > planet-wide power failure as a distraction to rescue Kirk. > So Captain Merrick is scared shitless. Is this order successfully completed? No. > "Journey to Babel" - the Enterprise is sabotaged by an Orion pirate posing > as an Andorian aide. Trapped at sublight, the Enterprise is attacked by an > Orion pirate ship that remains at warp 8. When the opportunity arises, > despite remaining at sublight, Enterprise fires on the Orion, crippling it > in the first volley. It then self-destructs to prevent capture. > But I thought that sublight ships couldn't fire on ships at warp! > "Obsession" - Kirk finally lures the cloud-creature back to its home planet, > Tycho IV. To lure it, they bait it to the surface with human blood, then set > a charge of one-ounce of TOS uber-antimatter... the resulting explosion > tears the atmosphere of the planet off. > This is a newer claim. I want proof of this statement. > "The Immunity Syndrome" - investigating the destruction of the USS Intrepid, > and wiped out billions of people in Gamma 7A, they discover an 11,000 > mile-long space-ameoba, which consumes energy, both mechanical and > biological. Spock discovers that the plasma within the cell is largely > gelatinous, with a liquid core near the center and nucleus. The Enterprise > persues Spock's shuttle into the heart of the creature, and plants a bomb. > The resulting explosion virtually atomizes the cell. > Oooh. Not another example of target-dependent chain reactions! > "A Piece of the Action" - Enterprise uses ship phasers on stun to knock out > an entire block's worth of fighting mobsters in one fell swoop. Fun side > note, Oxmyx tells Kirk to meet up with his boys at "the yellow fire plug at > the end of the street." It takes Scotty less than 5 seconds to pinpoint the > exact location... > Whoop dee doo. > "By Any Other Name" - The Enterprise's second trip through the galactic > barrier, on a beeline for Andromeda. > Fun side note: this barrier seems to be a problem to ST ships, yet it shouldn't be to NASA or SW! > "Patterns of Force" - when tracked by an incoming thermonuke at warp (both > at warp speeds, moving towards each other), Enterprise calmly blows it away > with a phaser shot. > Proof? > "The Ultimate Computer" - during the final wargames exercise, M-5 goes > bezerk. It suddenly jumps to warp 4, and strafes the fleet which is at > sublight, with full phasers. The opposing ships, who's shields have been > jacked down to 10% normal, take damage. Enterprise then pulls a tight 180, > and corckscrews through the fleet formation at warp 7. Starship Excalibur > takes repeated hits, and is declared dead - the entire crew is dead, but the > ship itself is perfectly intact. Commodore Wesely pulls the rest of the > ships back, and prepares to go in at full power, and destroy the rogue > Enterprise, and they also jump to warp to engage. > Probably distorted by E, I'll have to watch the ep again. > "The Omega Glory" - on the ground, using a single phaser pistol and a > handful of power packs, kills *thousands* of charging barbarian hordes > easily. To save the town from the oncoming horde, he asks Kirk for four > phaser pistols and three extra power packs each. "They sacrificed hundreds > of warriors, just to lure us out into the open," he says, "then they came, > and they came, and they came. We cut down thousands of them, and still they > came." It's worth noting that the barbarians in this case did possess > archers and basic smoothbore muskets... > Proof that it was a phaser _pistol_ as opposed to the phaser cannon that killed all the barbarians? > "Elaan of Troyus" - The Enterprise is sabotaged by one of the Dohlman's > guards, who is in the pay of the Klingons. They are stuck at sublight, > trying to fend off a Klingon ship which remains at warp. On emergency power > only, they manage to maintain the shields for several passes of the Klingon > battlecruiser. Then they find out the Dohlman's necklace is made of raw > dilithium, and giving them to Scotty, five minutes later, they pull up > partial main power, jump to warp, and cripple the Klingon ship with their > opening barrage. > This has been covered before, I'll have to dig it up. > "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" - Third time through the galactic barrier - > they apparently got so far from the Milky Way before Larry Marvick was > stopped, that they required extremely precise navigation to return. > So? > "For the World is Hollow, And I Have Touched the Sky" - The Enterprise is > diverted to destroy an asteroid on a collision course with Daran V. The > Asteroid ship Yonada, which they continue to believe they can easily destroy > if need-be, is large enough that from the interior, it resembles a planetary > surface. Producing the title, at one point, a man staggers in, and says, > "Even though it was forbidden, I climbed the western mountains. They have > lied to us! For the world is hollow, and I have touched the sky!" > Well it can't be that big. As shown by "Pegasus," such hollow asteroids exist. They could be destroyed by KT level torps. > "Day of the Dove" - Fourth trip through the galactic barrier... > So? > [SNIP] see my point about warp above > "Whom Gods Destroy" - the planet is shielded, and Kirk and Spock are trapped > within the penal colony. Scotty states that the Enterprise can batter down > the shields, but that the backwash would destroy everything on the surface, > even if the firing point is on the opposite side of the planet, where the > shield is weakest. In the meantime, Garth shows off a chemical explosive - a > piece smaller than a grain of sand vaporizes an Orion slave girl, and > generates a sizable earthquake. Garth states that if he drops the 20 oz > bottle of the stuff, that it would vaporize the entire planet. > 1. We don't see this 2. The atmosphere is poisonous and there are only 15 people on the planet, feedback from shield strain would easily kill all life on the planet > > cool guy covered TMP. I tried to get a screen capture from the DVD version > of the asteroid scene in the wormhole, however, the torpedo dwindles from > view several second before it impacts and shatters the asteroid. The stated > mass of the asteroid is in useless units... unless someone can figure out > what the hell "Mass, .2" means... > .2 of the Enterprise, maybe? > E1701 uses a lot of innuendo but no real proof of Connie power. If anything, the Enterprise _may_ carry some strategic nukes that are too slow and unwieldy for space combat, hence the need for photon torpedoes. -=Doomriser ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:45:21 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <3d233838_2@news.cybersurf.net> -------- More rebuttals (from SB) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [B]"The Alternative Factor" - the entrance of the Lazarus from an antimatter universe generates a violent space-time ripple which Starfleet Command states unequivacably was "felt in all quadrants of the galaxy, and beyond." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Which is amazing, since they have explored less than 8% of the galaxy at the time of TOS. It's stated in TNG that less than 15% of the Galazy has been explored. Perhaps the Admiral was exaggerating. (It doesn't matter anyway. Starfleet could have received reports from the Klingons, Romulans, etc... and drone probes, subspace relay stations, and listening posts, from all over) From http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ I'm not really interested in taking part in the discussion, but I agree with you. Just a few remarks I have to throw in: 1. Well, the planet killer was that powerful indeed. On the other hand, we have all kinds of weapons doing all kinds of damage in TOS as well as TNG. My personal opinion is that the firepower of the doomsday machine was just exhausted - it was recharging when it attacked the Constellation and Enterprise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "The Cage" - Lee Kelso states that the Enterprise could bring to bear enough firepower to "blast half a continent". Even assuming a continent the size of Australia, and taking a minimalist approach to the defination of "blast", that's a lot of firepower, generated by the Enterprise's laser weapons, which are later stated to be vastly inferior to phasers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- It needn't be a lot of firepower. Blasting half a continent doesn't mean anything in and of itself; it could simply be that the E's weapons could cover such an area in a given moment, not that they could do X amount of damage to it. (I tend to agree - look at all the funky electrical effects Trek weapons make versus their destructive power. They could probably cover half-a-continent with their funky flashes but it would take sustained bombardment to do damage.) quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - Enterprise travels to edge of the galaxy for the first time - from Earth, the nearest possible edge, heading straight up, is something close to 2,500 LY. This episode is also notable for Spock ordering the helmsman to engage "time-warp drives, take us into hyperspace!" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- So they were near the outer rim for awhile prior to going outside the galaxy? Do we know their starting point? Picard mentioned that the E-D had "been near the Outer Rim" in "Conspiracy," and she had no trouble reaching Earth within days or weeks. quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- "The Naked Time" - A risky cold-start of the ship's impulse engines flings the ship into reverse at "a speed greater than is possible in normal space", and back in time 71 hours. Earlier, Scotty states that if their intermix formula is wrong, they'll "go up in the biggest blast since the last star around these parts went supernova." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Again, no big deal. If nothing else was in the area, a mouse fart could be the biggest blast since the last local supernova. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "Balance of Terror" - Already remarked on, a plasma weapon vaporizes an asteroid that is at least 2 miles across, in the single shot. Sorry Phalanx, the outpost's shields do fail after the second hit. The third vapes the asteroid, and leaves only a smattering of brittle remneants of the hardest substance known to their science. Bare minimum, 180 GT. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- As I recall there's no mention whatsoever of the word "vaporize" anywhere in that episode. I also don't see how this is evidence of TOS superiority. Larger asteroids were considered fair game in "Pegasus" and "True Q" ("Deja Q", whatever...). Anyway, he true lower-limit is in the hundreds of terajoules--what would be required to blow the asteroid *apart*. Much of it probably was disassociated, I'd agree, but it's possible that the Romulan weapon simply had great effect on fairly simple elements and starship shielding (just like later phasers would in TNG, etc.). It needn't simply be "only" a plasma weapon, or only do its damage sans any sort of chain-reaction effects. [and so-on and so-on - see the SB thread http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showthread.php?s=3be1c226d5c58b45224fa38fb 62fc14e&threadid=28095&perpage=25&highlight=connie&pagenumber=3 ] -=Doomriser ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "His Divine Shadow" Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 18:23:59 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <3jHU8.327$%g1.14562@read2.inet.fi> -------- > > The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic > > disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times louder than > a > > 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of range of the > > disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk reports back in, > > having destroyed the planetary computers. > > > More logically, Scotty is pulling out of range of the sonic disruptors, > which shouldn't be able to touch the Ent in space! I dunno about this but someone made a calc and turned that into joules and they got somethingl ike 11 times stronger than the DS main gun. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 03 Jul 2002 18:27:32 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <20020703142732.25998.00004738@mb-mq.aol.com> -------- >> > The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic >> > disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times louder >than >> a >> > 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of range of >the >> > disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk reports back >in, >> > having destroyed the planetary computers. >> > >> More logically, Scotty is pulling out of range of the sonic disruptors, >> which shouldn't be able to touch the Ent in space! > >I dunno about this but someone made a calc and turned that into joules and >they got somethingl ike 11 times stronger than the DS main gun. > You know the biggest problem with those calc's? They used sea level air pressure. Was the E-Nil at sea level when fired upon? :) -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "His Divine Shadow" Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 18:30:56 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Sir Nitram" wrote in message news:20020703142732.25998.00004738@mb-mq.aol.com... > >> > The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic > >> > disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times louder > >than > >> a > >> > 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of range of > >the > >> > disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk reports back > >in, > >> > having destroyed the planetary computers. > >> > > >> More logically, Scotty is pulling out of range of the sonic disruptors, > >> which shouldn't be able to touch the Ent in space! > > > >I dunno about this but someone made a calc and turned that into joules and > >they got somethingl ike 11 times stronger than the DS main gun. > > > > You know the biggest problem with those calc's? > > They used sea level air pressure. > > Was the E-Nil at sea level when fired upon? :) heh. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kamakazie Sith" Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:53:40 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Doomriser" wrote in message news:3d2331b4_2@news.cybersurf.net... > > "The Cage" - Lee Kelso states that the Enterprise could bring to bear > enough > > firepower to "blast half a continent". Even assuming a continent the size > of > > Australia, and taking a minimalist approach to the defination of "blast", > > that's a lot of firepower, generated by the Enterprise's laser weapons, > > which are later stated to be vastly inferior to phasers. > > > > Did he say "blast half a continent with one shot?" I don't think so. If you > loaded up a Connie with 20th century nukes you should be able to blast half > a continent. Let's check the dictionary: Don't forget this is generated by the "laser" weapons that the E-nil carries, which are stated to be vastly inferior to phasers. > The ability of a TOS Constitution to "blast" half-a continent, without us > having seen this ability demonstrated, is not impressive. Oh and an ISD ability to BDZ an entire world is impressive even though we have not seen it? Or the 200GT TL are impressive even though we have not seen it. The above is canon...deal with it :) > > "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - Enterprise travels to edge of the galaxy > > for the first time - from Earth, the nearest possible edge, heading > straight > > up, is something close to 2,500 LY. This episode is also notable for Spock > > ordering the helmsman to engage "time-warp drives, take us into > hyperspace!" > > > > This might explain something. Perhaps destructive effects from such a drive > prevented its later use. > > > "The Naked Time" - A risky cold-start of the ship's impulse engines flings > > the ship into reverse at "a speed greater than is possible in normal > space", > > and back in time 71 hours. Earlier, Scotty states that if their intermix > > formula is wrong, they'll "go up in the biggest blast since the last star > > around these parts went supernova." > > > Hyperbole. When we actually _see_ a Connie go up, it is 97 megatons. Wrong. You saw the impulse fussion reactors go up, not the warp core which is what Scotty is refering to. > > "Balance of Terror" - Already remarked on, a plasma weapon vaporizes an > > asteroid that is at least 2 miles across, in the single shot. Sorry > Phalanx, > > the outpost's shields do fail after the second hit. The third vapes the > > asteroid, and leaves only a smattering of brittle remneants of the hardest > > substance known to their science. Bare minimum, 180 GT. Enterprise > survives > the first hit, which chases them at greater than warp 8, and is > able to > > manuever. A second hit brings down their shields, and a nuke at > point-blank > > range causes damage to the phaser control room. Total casualties at the > end > > of the battle: Romulan ship and all hands, phaser specialist Robert > > Tomlinson. > > > Haven't seen this ep. I'd like to see proof of vapourization, and the calcs, > and proof that the anti-ship shot from the BOP was the same as their > strategic weapon. Canon dialogue is not proof enough? > > "Arena" - A recording from Cestus III states that the Gorn approached at > > sublight along standard Federation approach lanes, before knocking out the > > planet's phaser batteries in their first salvo. > > > > "A Taste of Armageddon" - The computers on the surface list the Enterprise > > as having been destroyed by a tricobalt warhead, and the landing party > > killed when the enemy "materialized fusion bombs over the city." When held > > hostage, Kirk declares that he'll show Anan 7 what devestation really is, > > and orders Scotty to carry out General Order 24 in two hours. When Anan > asks > what he's done, Kirk states that if he isn't released by that > deadline, the > > Enterprise will level the surface of the planet and kill everyone on the > > planet. > > Does Captain Bluff actually pull this off? No. Does not mean he can't. General Order 24 seems to be authetic given the fact that one of Kirks former classmates knows what it means and it terrfied him. > > The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic > > disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times louder than > a > > 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of range of the > > disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk reports back in, > > having destroyed the planetary computers. > > > More logically, Scotty is pulling out of range of the sonic disruptors, > which shouldn't be able to touch the Ent in space! But they can, this is sci-fi they found a way to make it work. It is canon....deal with it. > > "Errand of Mercy" - When trying to convince the Organians to fight against > > the Klingons, he tells that that they will become slaves of the Empire. > The > > head counciler retorts that if they resist, the Klingons might simply > > destroy the planet, and be spared the trouble. When the Organians finally > > decide to intervene, as the Klingon and Federation fleets gather in the > > system, the counciler states that they cannot permit a war between the > > Klingons and the Federation, because the conflict in their system would > > almost certainly result in the destruction of their planet, and would cost > > far too many lives overall. > > > > Do they actually do this? No? And what did they mean by destroy? Hell, > pollution is "destroying" our planet right now! Great grasping at straws here.... > > "Friday's Child" - When the Capellans turn on him, the Klingon agent > > declares that with the Enterprise off chasing a phony distress call, that > > his ship could "burn this planet to a cinder." Kirk, Spock, and McCoy take > > him deadly seriously. > > > Sure. He might have developed some new weapon. Yet, he didn't. Wrong. He said his ship could "burn this planet to a cinder" he didn't because it would probably start a war. > > "The Doomsday Machine" - A planet eater is going around chopping planets > > into rubble with a pure antiproton force beam, and devouring the rubble as > > fuel. Commodore Matt Decker (father of TMP's Willard Decker) in command of > > the USS Constellation, attacks the device, which is made of pure > neutronium. > > When his ship is crippled making the direct approach, after exhausting > > phaser banks and emptying the torpedo magazines, he beams his crew down to > > the class-M planet in the system, fully expecting the thing to eat his > ship. > > All this proves is that an Acclamator is invulnerable to a TOS-Constitution. Why? > > Instead, it ignores the ship, and eats the planet. When Enterprise > arrives, > > under Decker's control, it makes several more direct attacks, and is hit > > repeatedly with the same weapon used to chop up the planets. Two of those > > hits occurr after the shields fail, and there is no visible hull damage > (as > > there is on Constellation). When Decker's shuttle explodes inside the maw, > > there is a slight power drop. So they toss in the entire Constellation, > with > > the fusion impulse reactors rigged to blow. When the planetkiller eats the > > Constellation, and the reactors cook off at "97.3 megatons", it is stopped > > dead in space, but is otherwise undamaged. > > > 1. Notice how there was no way for 2 TOS Connies to damage the ship with > their weapons and they had to blow one up inside the beast? This suggests > that "97.3 megatons" is greater firepower than a TOS Connie can put out in > any form. > 2. How could that beam be the planetkiller beam? At that size, it would take > decades to consume a planet instead of days. Furthermore, like other Trek > weapons it probably relied on target matter interaction, and would get far > less effect on shields and starship armour that dirt and rock and unrefined > metals. > > > "The Changling" - Nomad "sterilizes" the entire Malurian star system, in > > very short order. The population of 4 billion is exterminated. When it > > attacks the Enterprise, each of the three shots it fires are stated to > rate > > as equivalent to 90 photon torpedoes, and the 1.5 meter probe easily > > withstands a single torpedo strike. The third shot (equivalent to a total > of > > 270 photon torpedoes) brings the Enterprise's shields down. > > > > Nomad is more powerful than the Enterprise. So? 270 PTs will bring down the > shields of the Ent. So? We know from ST:V that a photon torpedo has the > firepower of a grenade so this is not meaningful. This is stupid. Kirk and Co. were near the site why would he order his own death? > > Kirk broadcasts a clear message to > > Starfleet, stating that he will self-destruct the ship using a newly > > installed Corbomite Device, which will instantly destroy *everything* > within > > 200,000 kilometers, and warns that starships should avoid the entire area > > for at least several weeks after the blast. > > > Funny, I seem to remember that as a BLUFF!!!!!!!! Yes, it was. > > "Bread and Circuses" - once again, captured by the locals, Kirk invokes > > General Order 24, which scares the shit out of Captain Merrick, who was a > > classmate of Kirk's at the Academy. Instead, Scotty manages to cause a > > planet-wide power failure as a distraction to rescue Kirk. > > > > So Captain Merrick is scared shitless. Is this order successfully completed? > No. This indicates that General Order 24 - Destruction of the surface of a planet is valid > > "Journey to Babel" - the Enterprise is sabotaged by an Orion pirate posing > > as an Andorian aide. Trapped at sublight, the Enterprise is attacked by an > > Orion pirate ship that remains at warp 8. When the opportunity arises, > > despite remaining at sublight, Enterprise fires on the Orion, crippling it > > in the first volley. It then self-destructs to prevent capture. > > > But I thought that sublight ships couldn't fire on ships at warp! Who said this? > > "Obsession" - Kirk finally lures the cloud-creature back to its home > planet, > > Tycho IV. To lure it, they bait it to the surface with human blood, then > set > > a charge of one-ounce of TOS uber-antimatter... the resulting explosion > > tears the atmosphere of the planet off. > > > > This is a newer claim. I want proof of this statement. Get the TOS episode. > > "The Immunity Syndrome" - investigating the destruction of the USS > Intrepid, > > and wiped out billions of people in Gamma 7A, they discover an 11,000 > > mile-long space-ameoba, which consumes energy, both mechanical and > > biological. Spock discovers that the plasma within the cell is largely > > gelatinous, with a liquid core near the center and nucleus. The Enterprise > > persues Spock's shuttle into the heart of the creature, and plants a bomb. > > The resulting explosion virtually atomizes the cell. > > > Oooh. Not another example of target-dependent chain reactions! Irrelevant. It was enough to cause an 11,000 mile long space ameoba to atmoize > > "A Piece of the Action" - Enterprise uses ship phasers on stun to knock > out > > an entire block's worth of fighting mobsters in one fell swoop. Fun side > > note, Oxmyx tells Kirk to meet up with his boys at "the yellow fire plug > at > > the end of the street." It takes Scotty less than 5 seconds to pinpoint > the > > exact location... > > > > Whoop dee doo. > > > "By Any Other Name" - The Enterprise's second trip through the galactic > > barrier, on a beeline for Andromeda. > > > Fun side note: this barrier seems to be a problem to ST ships, yet it > shouldn't be to NASA or SW! Isn't hyperspace travel beyong the rim of the galaxy impossible for SW ships? > > "Patterns of Force" - when tracked by an incoming thermonuke at warp (both > > at warp speeds, moving towards each other), Enterprise calmly blows it > away > with a phaser shot. > > > Proof? Get the episode, that is the only way to prove it. > > "The Ultimate Computer" - during the final wargames exercise, M-5 goes > > bezerk. It suddenly jumps to warp 4, and strafes the fleet which is at > > sublight, with full phasers. The opposing ships, who's shields have been > > jacked down to 10% normal, take damage. Enterprise then pulls a tight 180, > > and corckscrews through the fleet formation at warp 7. Starship Excalibur > > takes repeated hits, and is declared dead - the entire crew is dead, but > the > > ship itself is perfectly intact. Commodore Wesely pulls the rest of the > > ships back, and prepares to go in at full power, and destroy the rogue > > Enterprise, and they also jump to warp to engage. > > > Probably distorted by E, I'll have to watch the ep again. Sounds about right. Please though watch it again. > > "The Omega Glory" - on the ground, using a single phaser pistol and a > > handful of power packs, kills *thousands* of charging barbarian hordes > > easily. To save the town from the oncoming horde, he asks Kirk for four > > phaser pistols and three extra power packs each. "They sacrificed hundreds > > of warriors, just to lure us out into the open," he says, "then they came, > > and they came, and they came. We cut down thousands of them, and still > they > came." It's worth noting that the barbarians in this case did possess > > archers and basic smoothbore muskets... > > > Proof that it was a phaser _pistol_ as opposed to the phaser cannon that > killed all the barbarians? I believe it is shown that he only has a phaser pistol. I guess that debate SF vs 1810(?) ground troops is now in SF favor. > > "Elaan of Troyus" - The Enterprise is sabotaged by one of the Dohlman's > > guards, who is in the pay of the Klingons. They are stuck at sublight, > > trying to fend off a Klingon ship which remains at warp. On emergency > power > only, they manage to maintain the shields for several passes of the > Klingon > battlecruiser. Then they find out the Dohlman's necklace is made > of raw > dilithium, and giving them to Scotty, five minutes later, they pull > up > > partial main power, jump to warp, and cripple the Klingon ship with their > > opening barrage. > > > This has been covered before, I'll have to dig it up. Yes...Sulu reading off the range. Who is to say he isn't giving an estimate. > > "For the World is Hollow, And I Have Touched the Sky" - The Enterprise is > > diverted to destroy an asteroid on a collision course with Daran V. The > > Asteroid ship Yonada, which they continue to believe they can easily > destroy > > if need-be, is large enough that from the interior, it resembles a > planetary > > surface. Producing the title, at one point, a man staggers in, and says, > > "Even though it was forbidden, I climbed the western mountains. They have > > lied to us! For the world is hollow, and I have touched the sky!" > > > Well it can't be that big. As shown by "Pegasus," such hollow asteroids > exist. They could be destroyed by KT level torps. The E-D was obviously carrying sub-standard torpedos at the time :) > > "Whom Gods Destroy" - the planet is shielded, and Kirk and Spock are > trapped > > within the penal colony. Scotty states that the Enterprise can batter down > > the shields, but that the backwash would destroy everything on the > surface, > > even if the firing point is on the opposite side of the planet, where the > > shield is weakest. In the meantime, Garth shows off a chemical explosive - > a > > piece smaller than a grain of sand vaporizes an Orion slave girl, and > > generates a sizable earthquake. Garth states that if he drops the 20 oz > > bottle of the stuff, that it would vaporize the entire planet. > > > 1. We don't see this > 2. The atmosphere is poisonous and there are only 15 people on the planet, > feedback from shield strain would easily kill all life on the planet 1. We don't see 200 GT TL, and we don't see an ISD BDZ the surface of a planet > > cool guy covered TMP. I tried to get a screen capture from the DVD version > > of the asteroid scene in the wormhole, however, the torpedo dwindles from > > view several second before it impacts and shatters the asteroid. The > stated > > mass of the asteroid is in useless units... unless someone can figure out > > what the hell "Mass, .2" means... > > > .2 of the Enterprise, maybe? > > > E1701 uses a lot of innuendo but no real proof of Connie power. If anything, > the Enterprise _may_ carry some strategic nukes that are too slow and > unwieldy for space combat, hence the need for photon torpedoes. It looks like he took notes from the episodes. > -=Doomriser > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 23:31:41 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Kamakazie Sith" wrote in message news:ovJU8.401635$cQ3.27225@sccrnsc01... > > > "Elaan of Troyus" - The Enterprise is sabotaged by one of the Dohlman's > > > guards, who is in the pay of the Klingons. They are stuck at sublight, > > > trying to fend off a Klingon ship which remains at warp. On emergency > > power > only, they manage to maintain the shields for several passes of > the > > Klingon > battlecruiser. Then they find out the Dohlman's necklace is made > > of raw > dilithium, and giving them to Scotty, five minutes later, they > pull > > up > > > partial main power, jump to warp, and cripple the Klingon ship with > their > > > opening barrage. > > > > > This has been covered before, I'll have to dig it up. > > Yes...Sulu reading off the range. Who is to say he isn't giving an > estimate. No, he doesn't read the range in this one. That was Journey to Babel. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:32:00 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Kamakazie Sith" wrote in message news:ovJU8.401635$cQ3.27225@sccrnsc01... > > "Doomriser" wrote in message > news:3d2331b4_2@news.cybersurf.net... > > > "The Cage" - Lee Kelso states that the Enterprise could bring to bear > > enough > > > firepower to "blast half a continent". Even assuming a continent the > size > > of > > > Australia, and taking a minimalist approach to the defination of > "blast", > > > that's a lot of firepower, generated by the Enterprise's laser weapons, > > > which are later stated to be vastly inferior to phasers. > > > > > > > Did he say "blast half a continent with one shot?" I don't think so. If > you > > loaded up a Connie with 20th century nukes you should be able to blast > half > > a continent. Let's check the dictionary: > > Don't forget this is generated by the "laser" weapons that the E-nil > carries, which are stated to be vastly inferior to phasers. They can say it all they want if the E-Nil's weaponry demonstrates more power than the E-Ds phasers then they are bullshiting. > > The ability of a TOS Constitution to "blast" half-a continent, without us > > having seen this ability demonstrated, is not impressive. > > Oh and an ISD ability to BDZ an entire world is impressive even though we > have not seen it? > Really? I seem to recall that Dankayo happened and we specifically saw 3 ISDs involved with no support. I seemto recall that the surface wa evenly cratered and the only structure left standing was a deep shelter which nearly died anyway fom the violence of the attack. > Or the 200GT TL are impressive even though we have not seen it. > > The above is canon...deal with it :) There is a difference between a direct statment of energy capacity in SI units and speech which is open to wide interpretation. > > > The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic > > > disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times louder > than > > a > > > 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of range of > the > > > disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk reports back > in, > > > having destroyed the planetary computers. > > > > > More logically, Scotty is pulling out of range of the sonic disruptors, > > which shouldn't be able to touch the Ent in space! > > But they can, this is sci-fi they found a way to make it work. It is > canon....deal with it. Fine, they hit them with 1e18 decibels...at an atmosphereic pressure of about .000000000001 such as exists in space the energy content of this weapon is tiny. > > > "The Doomsday Machine" - A planet eater is going around chopping planets > > > into rubble with a pure antiproton force beam, and devouring the rubble > as > > > fuel. Commodore Matt Decker (father of TMP's Willard Decker) in command > of > > > the USS Constellation, attacks the device, which is made of pure > > neutronium. > > > When his ship is crippled making the direct approach, after exhausting > > > phaser banks and emptying the torpedo magazines, he beams his crew down > to > > > the class-M planet in the system, fully expecting the thing to eat his > > ship. > > > > All this proves is that an Acclamator is invulnerable to a > TOS-Constitution. > > Why? It exhausts its entire weaponry content yet stopping the deice only requires 97 MT. Also this goes back to ST ships can't hurt stuff with neutronium and /Acclamator/s have neutronium impregnated hulls. > > > "The Changling" - Nomad "sterilizes" the entire Malurian star system, in > > > very short order. The population of 4 billion is exterminated. When it > > > attacks the Enterprise, each of the three shots it fires are stated to > > rate > > > as equivalent to 90 photon torpedoes, and the 1.5 meter probe easily > > > withstands a single torpedo strike. The third shot (equivalent to a > total > > of > > > 270 photon torpedoes) brings the Enterprise's shields down. > > > > > > > Nomad is more powerful than the Enterprise. So? 270 PTs will bring down > the > > shields of the Ent. So? We know from ST:V that a photon torpedo has the > > firepower of a grenade so this is not meaningful. > > This is stupid. Kirk and Co. were near the site why would he order his own > death? We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more than blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG era max out at around 12 MT. > > > "Obsession" - Kirk finally lures the cloud-creature back to its home > > planet, > > > Tycho IV. To lure it, they bait it to the surface with human blood, then > > set > > > a charge of one-ounce of TOS uber-antimatter... the resulting explosion > > > tears the atmosphere of the planet off. > > > > > > > This is a newer claim. I want proof of this statement. > > Get the TOS episode. Or someone who made the claim could produce more than a general statement (like perhaps a script or clip) > Well it can't be that big. As shown by "Pegasus," such hollow asteroids > > exist. They could be destroyed by KT level torps. > > The E-D was obviously carrying sub-standard torpedos at the time :) Proof? :) > > > "Whom Gods Destroy" - the planet is shielded, and Kirk and Spock are > > trapped > > > within the penal colony. Scotty states that the Enterprise can batter > down > > > the shields, but that the backwash would destroy everything on the > > surface, > > > even if the firing point is on the opposite side of the planet, where > the > > > shield is weakest. In the meantime, Garth shows off a chemical > explosive - > > a > > > piece smaller than a grain of sand vaporizes an Orion slave girl, and > > > generates a sizable earthquake. Garth states that if he drops the 20 oz > > > bottle of the stuff, that it would vaporize the entire planet. > > > > > 1. We don't see this > > 2. The atmosphere is poisonous and there are only 15 people on the planet, > > feedback from shield strain would easily kill all life on the planet > > 1. We don't see 200 GT TL, and we don't see an ISD BDZ the surface of a > planet > The former might be correct however the later is iincorrect (ref Dankayo) -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kamakazie Sith" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 03:45:56 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:ag01mr$hdjb3$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > "Kamakazie Sith" wrote in message > news:ovJU8.401635$cQ3.27225@sccrnsc01... > > > > "Doomriser" wrote in message > > news:3d2331b4_2@news.cybersurf.net... > > > > "The Cage" - Lee Kelso states that the Enterprise could bring to bear > > > enough > > > > firepower to "blast half a continent". Even assuming a continent the > > size > > > of > > > > Australia, and taking a minimalist approach to the defination of > > "blast", > > > > that's a lot of firepower, generated by the Enterprise's laser > weapons, > > > > which are later stated to be vastly inferior to phasers. > > > > > > > > > > Did he say "blast half a continent with one shot?" I don't think so. If > > you > > > loaded up a Connie with 20th century nukes you should be able to blast > > half > > > a continent. Let's check the dictionary: > > > > Don't forget this is generated by the "laser" weapons that the E-nil > > carries, which are stated to be vastly inferior to phasers. > > They can say it all they want if the E-Nil's weaponry demonstrates more > power than the E-Ds phasers then they are bullshiting. > > > > The ability of a TOS Constitution to "blast" half-a continent, without > us > > > having seen this ability demonstrated, is not impressive. > > > > Oh and an ISD ability to BDZ an entire world is impressive even though we > > have not seen it? > > > > Really? I seem to recall that Dankayo happened and we specifically saw 3 > ISDs involved with no support. I seemto recall that the surface wa evenly > cratered and the only structure left standing was a deep shelter which > nearly died anyway fom the violence of the attack. We never saw that though....but yes I stand corrected. > > Or the 200GT TL are impressive even though we have not seen it. > > > > The above is canon...deal with it :) > > There is a difference between a direct statment of energy capacity in SI > units and speech which is open to wide interpretation. Very true. However, Pro-SW people have no problem using the Dodonna quote as evidence so I see no problem with this. > > > > > The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic > > > > disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times louder > > than > > > a > > > > 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of range of > > the > > > > disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk reports back > > in, > > > > having destroyed the planetary computers. > > > > > > > More logically, Scotty is pulling out of range of the sonic disruptors, > > > which shouldn't be able to touch the Ent in space! > > > > But they can, this is sci-fi they found a way to make it work. It is > > canon....deal with it. > > > Fine, they hit them with 1e18 decibels...at an atmosphereic pressure of > about .000000000001 such as exists in space the energy content of this > weapon is tiny. But they were HIT with 1e18 decibles...that much energy impacted the shields. > > > > > "The Doomsday Machine" - A planet eater is going around chopping > planets > > > > into rubble with a pure antiproton force beam, and devouring the > rubble > > as > > > > fuel. Commodore Matt Decker (father of TMP's Willard Decker) in > command > > of > > > > the USS Constellation, attacks the device, which is made of pure > > > neutronium. > > > > When his ship is crippled making the direct approach, after exhausting > > > > phaser banks and emptying the torpedo magazines, he beams his crew > down > > to > > > > the class-M planet in the system, fully expecting the thing to eat his > > > ship. > > > > > > All this proves is that an Acclamator is invulnerable to a > > TOS-Constitution. > > > > Why? > > > This is stupid. Kirk and Co. were near the site why would he order his > own > > death? > > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more than > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG era max > out at around 12 MT. I guess that would be dependant on the materials in the hull of the starship, correct? In ROTJ the HTL blasts delivered from Rebel cruisers sure didn't produce 200GT level fireballs. (The scene in question is where the Rebel cruiser destroys the ISD in the background, while Ackbar is giving orders to concentrate firepower on the SSD) > > > > > > > "Obsession" - Kirk finally lures the cloud-creature back to its home > > > planet, > > > > Tycho IV. To lure it, they bait it to the surface with human blood, > then > > > set > > > > a charge of one-ounce of TOS uber-antimatter... the resulting > explosion > > > > tears the atmosphere of the planet off. > > > > > > > > > > This is a newer claim. I want proof of this statement. > > > > Get the TOS episode. > > Or someone who made the claim could produce more than a general statement > (like perhaps a script or clip) Yeah, that's fine. > > > Well it can't be that big. As shown by "Pegasus," such hollow asteroids > > > exist. They could be destroyed by KT level torps. > > > > The E-D was obviously carrying sub-standard torpedos at the time :) > > Proof? :) Logic, and a valid theory considering the firepower of the obsolete Constitution class starship. > > > > "Whom Gods Destroy" - the planet is shielded, and Kirk and Spock are > > > trapped > > > > within the penal colony. Scotty states that the Enterprise can batter > > down > > > > the shields, but that the backwash would destroy everything on the > > > surface, > > > > even if the firing point is on the opposite side of the planet, where > > the > > > > shield is weakest. In the meantime, Garth shows off a chemical > > explosive - > > > a > > > > piece smaller than a grain of sand vaporizes an Orion slave girl, and > > > > generates a sizable earthquake. Garth states that if he drops the 20 > oz > > > > bottle of the stuff, that it would vaporize the entire planet. > > > > > > > 1. We don't see this > > > 2. The atmosphere is poisonous and there are only 15 people on the > planet, > > > feedback from shield strain would easily kill all life on the planet > > > > 1. We don't see 200 GT TL, and we don't see an ISD BDZ the surface of a > > planet > > > > The former might be correct however the later is iincorrect (ref Dankayo) Yeah I know... To be honest I'm just participating in this thread because it's something to do. I don't believe in the whole cult of connie BS, and the fact that ST is so bloody inconsistent is starting to make it boring to debate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:40:43 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Kamakazie Sith" wrote in message news:UxPU8.230906$R61.84907@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:ag01mr$hdjb3$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > "Kamakazie Sith" wrote in message > > news:ovJU8.401635$cQ3.27225@sccrnsc01... > > > > > > "Doomriser" wrote in message > > > news:3d2331b4_2@news.cybersurf.net... > > > Oh and an ISD ability to BDZ an entire world is impressive even though > we > > > have not seen it? > > > > > > > Really? I seem to recall that Dankayo happened and we specifically saw 3 > > ISDs involved with no support. I seemto recall that the surface wa evenly > > cratered and the only structure left standing was a deep shelter which > > nearly died anyway fom the violence of the attack. > > We never saw that though....but yes I stand corrected. We saw it, it was in the comic series so it was clearly illustrated. > > > Or the 200GT TL are impressive even though we have not seen it. > > > > > > The above is canon...deal with it :) > > > > There is a difference between a direct statment of energy capacity in SI > > units and speech which is open to wide interpretation. > > Very true. However, Pro-SW people have no problem using the Dodonna > quote as evidence so I see no problem with this. > Yes but you will have to defend it against the simple observation that hyperbole can be in play here. Dodonna's quote is in the context of a military breifing by a senior officer, such men can be assumed to be highly acurate in regards to the information they convey your quote I just don't know enough about. > > > > > > > The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic > > > > > disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times > louder > > > than > > > > a > > > > > 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of range > of > > > the > > > > > disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk reports > back > > > in, > > > > > having destroyed the planetary computers. > > > > > > > > > More logically, Scotty is pulling out of range of the sonic > disruptors, > > > > which shouldn't be able to touch the Ent in space! > > > > > > But they can, this is sci-fi they found a way to make it work. It is > > > canon....deal with it. > > > > > > Fine, they hit them with 1e18 decibels...at an atmosphereic pressure of > > about .000000000001 such as exists in space the energy content of this > > weapon is tiny. > > But they were HIT with 1e18 decibles...that much energy impacted the > shields. Decibels is a power rating, the number might be big but once we consdier that the atmospheric pressure for normal transmission doesn't exist AND that we don't know the length of impact suddenly the actual energy estimates drop, hwo much I don't know. > > > > > "The Doomsday Machine" - A planet eater is going around chopping > > planets > > > > > into rubble with a pure antiproton force beam, and devouring the > > rubble > > > as > > > > > fuel. Commodore Matt Decker (father of TMP's Willard Decker) in > > command > > > of > > > > > the USS Constellation, attacks the device, which is made of pure > > > > neutronium. > > > > > When his ship is crippled making the direct approach, after > exhausting > > > > > phaser banks and emptying the torpedo magazines, he beams his crew > > down > > > to > > > > > the class-M planet in the system, fully expecting the thing to eat > his > > > > ship. > > > > > > > > All this proves is that an Acclamator is invulnerable to a > > > TOS-Constitution. > > > > > > Why? > > > > > This is stupid. Kirk and Co. were near the site why would he order his > > own > > > death? > > > > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more than > > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG era > max > > out at around 12 MT. > > I guess that would be dependant on the materials in the hull of the > starship, correct? In ROTJ the HTL blasts delivered from Rebel cruisers > sure didn't produce 200GT level fireballs. (The scene in question is where > the Rebel cruiser destroys the ISD in the background, while Ackbar is giving > orders to concentrate firepower on the SSD) Its space, you can't have fireballs without atmosphere. > > > > > Well it can't be that big. As shown by "Pegasus," such hollow asteroids > > > > exist. They could be destroyed by KT level torps. > > > > > > The E-D was obviously carrying sub-standard torpedos at the time :) > > > > Proof? :) > > Logic, and a valid theory considering the firepower of the obsolete > Constitution class starship. Then explain how they were carrying the same low strength torpedoes in "Night Terrosr," ST:VI, and ST:FC to name a few other points. > > > > > "Whom Gods Destroy" - the planet is shielded, and Kirk and Spock are > > > > trapped > > > > > within the penal colony. Scotty states that the Enterprise can > batter > > > down > > > > > the shields, but that the backwash would destroy everything on the > > > > surface, > > > > > even if the firing point is on the opposite side of the planet, > where > > > the > > > > > shield is weakest. In the meantime, Garth shows off a chemical > > > explosive - > > > > a > > > > > piece smaller than a grain of sand vaporizes an Orion slave girl, > and > > > > > generates a sizable earthquake. Garth states that if he drops the 20 > > oz > > > > > bottle of the stuff, that it would vaporize the entire planet. > > > > > > > > > 1. We don't see this > > > > 2. The atmosphere is poisonous and there are only 15 people on the > > planet, > > > > feedback from shield strain would easily kill all life on the planet > > > > > > 1. We don't see 200 GT TL, and we don't see an ISD BDZ the surface of a > > > planet > > > > > > > The former might be correct however the later is iincorrect (ref Dankayo) > > Yeah I know... > > To be honest I'm just participating in this thread because it's something to > do. I don't believe in the whole cult of connie BS, and the fact that ST is > so bloody inconsistent is starting to make it boring to debate. > > Fine by me, good debating with you. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kamakazie Sith" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 05:49:43 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:ag0jpr$huk37$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > We never saw that though....but yes I stand corrected. > > We saw it, it was in the comic series so it was clearly illustrated. Argh comics....very well. > > > > Or the 200GT TL are impressive even though we have not seen it. > > > > > > > > The above is canon...deal with it :) > > > > > > There is a difference between a direct statment of energy capacity in SI > > > units and speech which is open to wide interpretation. > > > > Very true. However, Pro-SW people have no problem using the Dodonna > > quote as evidence so I see no problem with this. > > > > Yes but you will have to defend it against the simple observation that > hyperbole can be in play here. Dodonna's quote is in the context of a > military breifing by a senior officer, such men can be assumed to be highly > acurate in regards to the information they convey your quote I just don't > know enough about. Yes, but all the time. Everyone seems to be convinced that the E-Nil can lay waste to a planets surface. > > > > > > > > > The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic > > > > > > disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times > > louder > > > > than > > > > > a > > > > > > 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of range > > of > > > > the > > > > > > disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk reports > > back > > > > in, > > > > > > having destroyed the planetary computers. > > > > > > > > > > > More logically, Scotty is pulling out of range of the sonic > > disruptors, > > > > > which shouldn't be able to touch the Ent in space! > > > > > > > > But they can, this is sci-fi they found a way to make it work. It is > > > > canon....deal with it. > > > > > > > > > Fine, they hit them with 1e18 decibels...at an atmosphereic pressure of > > > about .000000000001 such as exists in space the energy content of this > > > weapon is tiny. > > > > But they were HIT with 1e18 decibles...that much energy impacted the > > shields. > > Decibels is a power rating, the number might be big but once we consdier > that the atmospheric pressure for normal transmission doesn't exist AND that > we don't know the length of impact suddenly the actual energy estimates > drop, hwo much I don't know. But then the weapon would be useless, and it's construction would have been pointless. The best answer is that they found a way to deliver that energy to the shields, regardless of the surrounding enviroment. Honestly, what kind of sense does it make that the aliens would fire a weapon that has zero effect in space..........NONE. > > > > > > > "The Doomsday Machine" - A planet eater is going around chopping > > > planets > > > > > > into rubble with a pure antiproton force beam, and devouring the > > > rubble > > > > as > > > > > > fuel. Commodore Matt Decker (father of TMP's Willard Decker) in > > > command > > > > of > > > > > > the USS Constellation, attacks the device, which is made of pure > > > > > neutronium. > > > > > > When his ship is crippled making the direct approach, after > > exhausting > > > > > > phaser banks and emptying the torpedo magazines, he beams his crew > > > down > > > > to > > > > > > the class-M planet in the system, fully expecting the thing to eat > > his > > > > > ship. > > > > > > > > > > All this proves is that an Acclamator is invulnerable to a > > > > TOS-Constitution. > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > > This is stupid. Kirk and Co. were near the site why would he order > his > > > own > > > > death? > > > > > > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more than > > > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG era > > max > > > out at around 12 MT. > > > > I guess that would be dependant on the materials in the hull of the > > starship, correct? In ROTJ the HTL blasts delivered from Rebel cruisers > > sure didn't produce 200GT level fireballs. (The scene in question is > where > > the Rebel cruiser destroys the ISD in the background, while Ackbar is > giving > > orders to concentrate firepower on the SSD) > > Its space, you can't have fireballs without atmosphere. Noted...balls of plasma? > > > > > > > Well it can't be that big. As shown by "Pegasus," such hollow > asteroids > > > > > exist. They could be destroyed by KT level torps. > > > > > > > > The E-D was obviously carrying sub-standard torpedos at the time :) > > > > > > Proof? :) > > > > Logic, and a valid theory considering the firepower of the obsolete > > Constitution class starship. > > Then explain how they were carrying the same low strength torpedoes in > "Night Terrosr," ST:VI, and ST:FC to name a few other points. They are on a mission of exploration not destruction. However, what torpedoes are you refering to in ST: FC. And in ST: VI what kind of effects on the saucer are you expecting....and why? Can't the hull be that resilant? Also, IIRC the shields were still up but buckling. > > To be honest I'm just participating in this thread because it's something > to > > do. I don't believe in the whole cult of connie BS, and the fact that ST > is > > so bloody inconsistent is starting to make it boring to debate. > > > > > > > Fine by me, good debating with you. At least till something interesting comes from Enterprise or ST: X.........muhahaha ::cough:: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paradox" Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 16:32:43 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <1026084792.926273@globe.atl2.mindspring.net> -------- Wilkens can you scan the comic pages? I want to see the BDZ!!!! "Kamakazie Sith" wrote in message news:XlRU8.393226$352.51362@sccrnsc02... > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:ag0jpr$huk37$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > > > > > We never saw that though....but yes I stand corrected. > > > > We saw it, it was in the comic series so it was clearly illustrated. > > > Argh comics....very well. > > > > > > Or the 200GT TL are impressive even though we have not seen it. > > > > > > > > > > The above is canon...deal with it :) > > > > > > > > There is a difference between a direct statment of energy capacity in > SI > > > > units and speech which is open to wide interpretation. > > > > > > Very true. However, Pro-SW people have no problem using the Dodonna > > > quote as evidence so I see no problem with this. > > > > > > > Yes but you will have to defend it against the simple observation that > > hyperbole can be in play here. Dodonna's quote is in the context of a > > military breifing by a senior officer, such men can be assumed to be > highly > > acurate in regards to the information they convey your quote I just don't > > know enough about. > > Yes, but all the time. Everyone seems to be convinced that the E-Nil can > lay waste to a planets surface. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic > > > > > > > disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times > > > louder > > > > > than > > > > > > a > > > > > > > 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of > range > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk > reports > > > back > > > > > in, > > > > > > > having destroyed the planetary computers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > More logically, Scotty is pulling out of range of the sonic > > > disruptors, > > > > > > which shouldn't be able to touch the Ent in space! > > > > > > > > > > But they can, this is sci-fi they found a way to make it work. It > is > > > > > canon....deal with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, they hit them with 1e18 decibels...at an atmosphereic pressure > of > > > > about .000000000001 such as exists in space the energy content of this > > > > weapon is tiny. > > > > > > But they were HIT with 1e18 decibles...that much energy impacted the > > > shields. > > > > Decibels is a power rating, the number might be big but once we consdier > > that the atmospheric pressure for normal transmission doesn't exist AND > that > > we don't know the length of impact suddenly the actual energy estimates > > drop, hwo much I don't know. > > But then the weapon would be useless, and it's construction would have been > pointless. The best answer is that they found a way to deliver that energy > to the shields, regardless of the surrounding enviroment. > > Honestly, what kind of sense does it make that the aliens would fire a > weapon that has zero effect in space..........NONE. > > > > > > > > > > "The Doomsday Machine" - A planet eater is going around chopping > > > > planets > > > > > > > into rubble with a pure antiproton force beam, and devouring the > > > > rubble > > > > > as > > > > > > > fuel. Commodore Matt Decker (father of TMP's Willard Decker) in > > > > command > > > > > of > > > > > > > the USS Constellation, attacks the device, which is made of pure > > > > > > neutronium. > > > > > > > When his ship is crippled making the direct approach, after > > > exhausting > > > > > > > phaser banks and emptying the torpedo magazines, he beams his > crew > > > > down > > > > > to > > > > > > > the class-M planet in the system, fully expecting the thing to > eat > > > his > > > > > > ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > All this proves is that an Acclamator is invulnerable to a > > > > > TOS-Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > > > > This is stupid. Kirk and Co. were near the site why would he order > > his > > > > own > > > > > death? > > > > > > > > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more > than > > > > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG > era > > > max > > > > out at around 12 MT. > > > > > > I guess that would be dependant on the materials in the hull of the > > > starship, correct? In ROTJ the HTL blasts delivered from Rebel cruisers > > > sure didn't produce 200GT level fireballs. (The scene in question is > > where > > > the Rebel cruiser destroys the ISD in the background, while Ackbar is > > giving > > > orders to concentrate firepower on the SSD) > > > > Its space, you can't have fireballs without atmosphere. > > Noted...balls of plasma? > > > > > > > > > > Well it can't be that big. As shown by "Pegasus," such hollow > > asteroids > > > > > > exist. They could be destroyed by KT level torps. > > > > > > > > > > The E-D was obviously carrying sub-standard torpedos at the time :) > > > > > > > > Proof? :) > > > > > > Logic, and a valid theory considering the firepower of the obsolete > > > Constitution class starship. > > > > Then explain how they were carrying the same low strength torpedoes in > > "Night Terrosr," ST:VI, and ST:FC to name a few other points. > > They are on a mission of exploration not destruction. However, what > torpedoes are you refering to in ST: FC. And in ST: VI what kind of effects > on the saucer are you expecting....and why? Can't the hull be that > resilant? Also, IIRC the shields were still up but buckling. > > > > > > > To be honest I'm just participating in this thread because it's > something > > to > > > do. I don't believe in the whole cult of connie BS, and the fact that > ST > > is > > > so bloody inconsistent is starting to make it boring to debate. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine by me, good debating with you. > > At least till something interesting comes from Enterprise or ST: > X.........muhahaha ::cough:: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:22:18 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Paradox" wrote in message news:1026084792.926273@globe.atl2.mindspring.net... > Wilkens can you scan the comic pages? I want to see the BDZ!!!! Curtis has it on his site, go look for it on the SD page. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 11:42:22 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:ag01mr$hdjb3$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > Also this goes back to ST ships can't hurt stuff with neutronium and > /Acclamator/s have neutronium impregnated hulls. The Star Wars Encyclopedia calls neutronium a heavy metallic element. Neutron star neutronium can't be a metal or an element, because it has no protons. > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more than > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG era max > out at around 12 MT. 12 megatons wouldn't make the fireball from Skin of Evil. > > > > "Obsession" - Kirk finally lures the cloud-creature back to its home > > > planet, > > > > Tycho IV. To lure it, they bait it to the surface with human blood, > then > > > set > > > > a charge of one-ounce of TOS uber-antimatter... the resulting > explosion > > > > tears the atmosphere of the planet off. > > > > > > > > > > This is a newer claim. I want proof of this statement. > > > > Get the TOS episode. > > Or someone who made the claim could produce more than a general statement > (like perhaps a script or clip) Spock says they'll tap the antimatter from the ship's engines. The redshirt who goes with Kirk to the planet says it is "less than an ounce". Spock says it will rip up the atmosphere, and we see the ship shake, even in high orbit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:36:07 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:ywWU8.539755$Gs.36174726@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:ag01mr$hdjb3$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > Also this goes back to ST ships can't hurt stuff with neutronium and > > /Acclamator/s have neutronium impregnated hulls. > > The Star Wars Encyclopedia calls neutronium a heavy metallic element. > Neutron star neutronium can't be a metal or an element, because it has no > protons. Neither can ST neutronium, the Iconian(I'm not sure) Gateway is proof enough. > > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more than > > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG era > max > > out at around 12 MT. > > 12 megatons wouldn't make the fireball from Skin of Evil. > Skin Of Evil shows a pressure wave in atmosphere, IIRC, not a fireball, the diameters are diferent and for that matter a whole host of other factors comes into play. The end point is that the Anti-Borg Weapon is more powerful than their entire collection of P-torps and even taking Data's ridiculous 12.75 Billion GW/? to be accurate we'd get 12 MT per torpedo. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 05:47:51 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:ag2mb9$ingvo$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:ywWU8.539755$Gs.36174726@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > > news:ag01mr$hdjb3$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > > Also this goes back to ST ships can't hurt stuff with neutronium and > > > /Acclamator/s have neutronium impregnated hulls. > > > > The Star Wars Encyclopedia calls neutronium a heavy metallic element. > > Neutron star neutronium can't be a metal or an element, because it has no > > protons. > > Neither can ST neutronium, the Iconian(I'm not sure) Gateway is proof > enough. Where did the Iconians get it? How did they make it? Is it a metal? > > > > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more than > > > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG era > > max > > > out at around 12 MT. > > > > 12 megatons wouldn't make the fireball from Skin of Evil. > > > > Skin Of Evil shows a pressure wave in atmosphere, IIRC, not a fireball, I thought pressure waves didn't emit light like fires do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:10:27 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:bqaV8.125971$Ca2.6753632@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:ag2mb9$ingvo$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > news:ywWU8.539755$Gs.36174726@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > > > news:ag01mr$hdjb3$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > > > Also this goes back to ST ships can't hurt stuff with neutronium and > > > > /Acclamator/s have neutronium impregnated hulls. > > > > > > The Star Wars Encyclopedia calls neutronium a heavy metallic element. > > > Neutron star neutronium can't be a metal or an element, because it has > no > > > protons. > > > > Neither can ST neutronium, the Iconian(I'm not sure) Gateway is proof > > enough. > > Where did the Iconians get it? How did they make it? Is it a metal? > > > > > > > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more > than > > > > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG > era > > > max > > > > out at around 12 MT. > > > > > > 12 megatons wouldn't make the fireball from Skin of Evil. > > > > > > > Skin Of Evil shows a pressure wave in atmosphere, IIRC, not a fireball, > > I thought pressure waves didn't emit light like fires do. > Pressure waves interacting with things like cloud froms will reflect light in odd but IIRC this one piece has been ated around a couple times and I know Wayne has addresseed it before I'm gonna go see if he recalls. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 02:24:10 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:ywWU8.539755$Gs.36174726@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:ag01mr$hdjb3$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > Also this goes back to ST ships can't hurt stuff with neutronium and > > /Acclamator/s have neutronium impregnated hulls. > > The Star Wars Encyclopedia calls neutronium a heavy metallic element. > Neutron star neutronium can't be a metal or an element, because it has no > protons. > > > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more than > > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG era > max > > out at around 12 MT. > > 12 megatons wouldn't make the fireball from Skin of Evil. > Okay now that I double checkd my sources I can get back to this. The fireball in SOE was NOT a p-torp it was a detonating shuttle craft. These craft have A/M fuel and warp capacity (they've shown it before) therefore we are nto witnessing the fireball from a p-torp explosion but rather the annihilation of the shuttlecraft and its fuel. If you want high energy A/M then you are gonna have to accept ultra low power p-torps. If you want low power A/M then you still have to accept low power torps. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:16:36 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:ag8mrb$jpmrj$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:ywWU8.539755$Gs.36174726@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > > news:ag01mr$hdjb3$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > > Also this goes back to ST ships can't hurt stuff with neutronium and > > > /Acclamator/s have neutronium impregnated hulls. > > > > The Star Wars Encyclopedia calls neutronium a heavy metallic element. > > Neutron star neutronium can't be a metal or an element, because it has no > > protons. > > > > > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more than > > > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG era > > max > > > out at around 12 MT. > > > > 12 megatons wouldn't make the fireball from Skin of Evil. > > > > > Okay now that I double checkd my sources I can get back to this. The > fireball in SOE was NOT a p-torp it was a detonating shuttle craft. These > craft have A/M fuel and warp capacity (they've shown it before) therefore we > are nto witnessing the fireball from a p-torp explosion but rather the > annihilation of the shuttlecraft and its fuel. If you want high energy A/M > then you are gonna have to accept ultra low power p-torps. If you want low > power A/M then you still have to accept low power torps. Actually as far as I know the only shuttle we know has antimatter aboard is Tom Paris' speedboat (Type 9) from the stupid Voyager episode, but the entire first part of the episode explained the fact that the thing was heavily modified. The shuttlecraft of a century earlier apparently didn't carry antimatter, and we have no mention of it any other time. As many times as shuttles have crashed, you'd think they'd have had core breaches, or even mentioned it as a potential source of worry. Skin of Evil showed us a huge blast, after all. But, they didn't. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:39:00 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:ag8mrb$jpmrj$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:ywWU8.539755$Gs.36174726@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > > news:ag01mr$hdjb3$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > > Also this goes back to ST ships can't hurt stuff with neutronium and > > > /Acclamator/s have neutronium impregnated hulls. > > > > The Star Wars Encyclopedia calls neutronium a heavy metallic element. > > Neutron star neutronium can't be a metal or an element, because it has no > > protons. > > > > > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more than > > > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG era > > max > > > out at around 12 MT. > > > > 12 megatons wouldn't make the fireball from Skin of Evil. > > > > > Okay now that I double checkd my sources I can get back to this. The > fireball in SOE was NOT a p-torp it was a detonating shuttle craft. These > craft have A/M fuel and warp capacity (they've shown it before) therefore we > are nto witnessing the fireball from a p-torp explosion but rather the > annihilation of the shuttlecraft and its fuel. If you want high energy A/M > then you are gonna have to accept ultra low power p-torps. If you want low > power A/M then you still have to accept low power torps. "The Most Toys"[TNG] Sarium is mentioned as being vital to a Federation's shuttles propulsion systems. We've never heard of this substance any other time. I'll try to get the episode and find a quote, but if anyone else has it feel free to help. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 00:49:02 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:EF1W8.323046$_j6.15513998@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:ag8mrb$jpmrj$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > news:ywWU8.539755$Gs.36174726@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > > > news:ag01mr$hdjb3$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > > > Also this goes back to ST ships can't hurt stuff with neutronium and > > > > /Acclamator/s have neutronium impregnated hulls. > > > > > > The Star Wars Encyclopedia calls neutronium a heavy metallic element. > > > Neutron star neutronium can't be a metal or an element, because it has > no > > > protons. > > > > > > > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more > than > > > > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG > era > > > max > > > > out at around 12 MT. > > > > > > 12 megatons wouldn't make the fireball from Skin of Evil. > > > > > > > > > Okay now that I double checkd my sources I can get back to this. The > > fireball in SOE was NOT a p-torp it was a detonating shuttle craft. These > > craft have A/M fuel and warp capacity (they've shown it before) therefore > we > > are nto witnessing the fireball from a p-torp explosion but rather the > > annihilation of the shuttlecraft and its fuel. If you want high energy A/M > > then you are gonna have to accept ultra low power p-torps. If you want low > > power A/M then you still have to accept low power torps. > > "The Most Toys"[TNG] > Sarium is mentioned as being vital to a Federation's shuttles propulsion > systems. We've never heard of this substance any other time. I'll try to > get the episode and find a quote, but if anyone else has it feel free to > help. :) > Irregardless the shuttlecrtaft are capable of warp flight which means they have M/AM warp cores. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 11:58:27 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:agb5l9$jgpv8$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:EF1W8.323046$_j6.15513998@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > > news:ag8mrb$jpmrj$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > > news:ywWU8.539755$Gs.36174726@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > > > > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > > > > news:ag01mr$hdjb3$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > > > > Also this goes back to ST ships can't hurt stuff with neutronium and > > > > > /Acclamator/s have neutronium impregnated hulls. > > > > > > > > The Star Wars Encyclopedia calls neutronium a heavy metallic element. > > > > Neutron star neutronium can't be a metal or an element, because it has > > no > > > > protons. > > > > > > > > > We know that torpedoes of ST:VI don't have enough energy to do more > > than > > > > > blow out a small section of the saucer and that torpedos of the TNG > > era > > > > max > > > > > out at around 12 MT. > > > > > > > > 12 megatons wouldn't make the fireball from Skin of Evil. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay now that I double checkd my sources I can get back to this. The > > > fireball in SOE was NOT a p-torp it was a detonating shuttle craft. > These > > > craft have A/M fuel and warp capacity (they've shown it before) > therefore > > we > > > are nto witnessing the fireball from a p-torp explosion but rather the > > > annihilation of the shuttlecraft and its fuel. If you want high energy > A/M > > > then you are gonna have to accept ultra low power p-torps. If you want > low > > > power A/M then you still have to accept low power torps. > > > > "The Most Toys"[TNG] > > Sarium is mentioned as being vital to a Federation's shuttles propulsion > > systems. We've never heard of this substance any other time. I'll try > to > > get the episode and find a quote, but if anyone else has it feel free to > > help. :) > > > > > Irregardless the shuttlecrtaft are capable of warp flight which means they > have M/AM warp cores. Not necessarily. Romulan Warbirds are capable of warp flight, but don't use it. The idea I've seen from everything that talks about sarium is that it stores massive amounts of energy, though I'm not sure if that actually came from the show. (I'm not talking about the sarium krellide from the TNG Technical Maunal, either.) Perhaps shuttlecraft usually run on a sarium battery. Energizer from hell. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jpmwycombe@aol.com (JPMWycombe) Date: 08 Jul 2002 12:09:16 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <20020708080916.22909.00003443@mb-fh.aol.com> -------- Impulse is supposed to be close to half Light speed using a sarium power cell therefore who says same said cell multiplied can't push a ship into warp. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C.S.Strowbridge" Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 23:39:31 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <3D238B6E.7090405@shaw.ca> -------- Kamakazie Sith wrote: > "Doomriser" wrote: >>Did he say "blast half a continent with one shot?" I don't think so. >>If you loaded up a Connie with 20th century nukes you should be able >>to blast half a continent. > > Don't forget this is generated by the "laser" weapons that the E-nil > carries, which are stated to be vastly inferior to phasers. But inferior in what way? It doesn't have to be firepower. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 03 Jul 2002 23:44:14 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <20020703194414.05127.00002501@mb-mv.aol.com> -------- >Kamakazie Sith wrote: >> "Doomriser" wrote: > > >>Did he say "blast half a continent with one shot?" I don't think so. > >>If you loaded up a Connie with 20th century nukes you should be able > >>to blast half a continent. >> >> Don't forget this is generated by the "laser" weapons that the E-nil >> carries, which are stated to be vastly inferior to phasers. > >But inferior in what way? It doesn't have to be firepower. > Likely precision and versatility.. A Phaser beam can be used for orbital strikes, stunning ground troops, and a C-section. Whereas a Laser just has Various Degrees Of Fuck Shit Up. -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:31:41 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Doomriser" wrote in message news:3d2331b4_2@news.cybersurf.net... > "Doomriser" wrote in message > news:3d2329ef_1@news.cybersurf.net... > > For high Warp Speeds, we already know from TNG that repeated use of warp > drives in an area severely degrades subspace in that area. Therefore, it is > reasonable to conclude that subspace was 'cleaner' and 'clearer' in TOS, > making travel faster. Later in TNG, it would take starships longer to > traverse the same areas. It was a new discovery in that episode. I would think people would have noticed if it slowed them down from 750,000c in 'That Which Survives' to around 9,000c in the Next Generation era. > > > "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - Enterprise travels to edge of the galaxy > > for the first time - from Earth, the nearest possible edge, heading > straight > > up, is something close to 2,500 LY. This episode is also notable for Spock > > ordering the helmsman to engage "time-warp drives, take us into > hyperspace!" > > > > This might explain something. Perhaps destructive effects from such a drive > prevented its later use. Doesn't matter, since they didn't leave directly from Earth. > > > "The Naked Time" - A risky cold-start of the ship's impulse engines flings > > the ship into reverse at "a speed greater than is possible in normal > space", > > and back in time 71 hours. Earlier, Scotty states that if their intermix > > formula is wrong, they'll "go up in the biggest blast since the last star > > around these parts went supernova." > > > Hyperbole. When we actually _see_ a Connie go up, it is 97 megatons. That was the fusion reactors for the impulse deck. The antimatter reactors would be more powerful. > > > "Tomorrow is Yesterday" - an accidental slingshot around a black hole > throws > the Enterprise back to 1967. While cruising through the upper > atmosphere in > > excess of Mach 1, Spock notes with little concern that if Christopher > fires > > his payload of nuclear-tipped air-to-air missiles at the unshielded > > Enterprise, they "could cause some damage." The Enterprise then locks the > > jet in a tractor beam, but even after dropping to lowest power, the > tractor > > causes the plane to fragment. > > > Ooh, it broke up an F-104 "Widoemaker," not known for durability, that was > in a steep climb. Whoop-dee-doo. So kt-level AAMs posed a danger to the > Enterprise's hull. Well, if those nuke-tipped air-to-air missiles (what is the point of that, anyway?) had infrared targeting, they might hit the impulse engines, which were already having enough trouble from prior damage. > > The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic > > disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times louder than > a > > 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of range of the > > disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk reports back in, > > having destroyed the planetary computers. > > > More logically, Scotty is pulling out of range of the sonic disruptors, > which shouldn't be able to touch the Ent in space! :) > > > "Errand of Mercy" - When trying to convince the Organians to fight against > > the Klingons, he tells that that they will become slaves of the Empire. > The > > head counciler retorts that if they resist, the Klingons might simply > > destroy the planet, and be spared the trouble. When the Organians finally > > decide to intervene, as the Klingon and Federation fleets gather in the > > system, the counciler states that they cannot permit a war between the > > Klingons and the Federation, because the conflict in their system would > > almost certainly result in the destruction of their planet, and would cost > > far too many lives overall. > > > > Do they actually do this? No? And what did they mean by destroy? Hell, > pollution is "destroying" our planet right now! "Destroying a planet" in TOS seemed to refer only to the eradication of civilization/population from the surface. For example, Kirk said "Cestus III has been destroyed" in Arena, but he only referred to the base, which still had a few buildings and objects standing. > > > "Friday's Child" - When the Capellans turn on him, the Klingon agent > > declares that with the Enterprise off chasing a phony distress call, that > > his ship could "burn this planet to a cinder." Kirk, Spock, and McCoy take > > him deadly seriously. > > > Sure. He might have developed some new weapon. Yet, he didn't. No new weapon would be needed, though he would need a lot of time, probably. The Enterprise seemed to be a match for three Klingon ships. If that is true in all respects, it would take him three times as long to perform a General Order 24. > > Instead, it ignores the ship, and eats the planet. When Enterprise > arrives, > > under Decker's control, it makes several more direct attacks, and is hit > > repeatedly with the same weapon used to chop up the planets. Two of those > > hits occurr after the shields fail, and there is no visible hull damage > (as > > there is on Constellation). When Decker's shuttle explodes inside the maw, > > there is a slight power drop. So they toss in the entire Constellation, > with > > the fusion impulse reactors rigged to blow. When the planetkiller eats the > > Constellation, and the reactors cook off at "97.3 megatons", it is stopped > > dead in space, but is otherwise undamaged. > > > 1. Notice how there was no way for 2 TOS Connies to damage the ship with > their weapons and they had to blow one up inside the beast? This suggests > that "97.3 megatons" is greater firepower than a TOS Connie can put out in > any form. No, it had a neutronium hull. Kirk blew the ship inside the thing in the hopes that he could damage whatever made it work. > 2. How could that beam be the planetkiller beam? At that size, it would take > decades to consume a planet instead of days. Furthermore, like other Trek > weapons it probably relied on target matter interaction, and would get far > less effect on shields and starship armour that dirt and rock and unrefined > metals. By definition, a beam of antimatter would probably require a matter target. Duh. > > Kirk broadcasts a clear message to > > Starfleet, stating that he will self-destruct the ship using a newly > > installed Corbomite Device, which will instantly destroy *everything* > within > > 200,000 kilometers, and warns that starships should avoid the entire area > > for at least several weeks after the blast. > > > Funny, I seem to remember that as a BLUFF!!!!!!!! Yep. > > > "Journey to Babel" - the Enterprise is sabotaged by an Orion pirate posing > > as an Andorian aide. Trapped at sublight, the Enterprise is attacked by an > > Orion pirate ship that remains at warp 8. When the opportunity arises, > > despite remaining at sublight, Enterprise fires on the Orion, crippling it > > in the first volley. It then self-destructs to prevent capture. > > > But I thought that sublight ships couldn't fire on ships at warp! Says who? I don't know if it matters, though, because I'm pretty sure the Orion ship slowed when Kirk cut power, feigning severe damage. > > > "Obsession" - Kirk finally lures the cloud-creature back to its home > planet, > > Tycho IV. To lure it, they bait it to the surface with human blood, then > set > > a charge of one-ounce of TOS uber-antimatter... the resulting explosion > > tears the atmosphere of the planet off. > > > > This is a newer claim. I want proof of this statement. It was actually half the atmosphere, I think. > > "The Omega Glory" - on the ground, using a single phaser pistol and a > > handful of power packs, kills *thousands* of charging barbarian hordes > > easily. To save the town from the oncoming horde, he asks Kirk for four > > phaser pistols and three extra power packs each. "They sacrificed hundreds > > of warriors, just to lure us out into the open," he says, "then they came, > > and they came, and they came. We cut down thousands of them, and still > they > came." It's worth noting that the barbarians in this case did possess > > archers and basic smoothbore muskets... > > > Proof that it was a phaser _pistol_ as opposed to the phaser cannon that > killed all the barbarians? Nobody had a phaser cannon. They had the pistol of Tracey, and two or three more from the Enterprise crew. When Tracey's ship arrived, they sent a landing party. Tracey stayed behind for some reason, but his men returned, carrying back a plague. There was never a chance for them to send a phaser cannon, and Kirk certainly didn't bring one along. > > "Whom Gods Destroy" - the planet is shielded, and Kirk and Spock are > trapped > > within the penal colony. Scotty states that the Enterprise can batter down > > the shields, but that the backwash would destroy everything on the > surface, > > even if the firing point is on the opposite side of the planet, where the > > shield is weakest. In the meantime, Garth shows off a chemical explosive - > a > > piece smaller than a grain of sand vaporizes an Orion slave girl, and > > generates a sizable earthquake. Garth states that if he drops the 20 oz > > bottle of the stuff, that it would vaporize the entire planet. > > > 1. We don't see this We did see the cute green psychoslut get blown up. > 2. The atmosphere is poisonous and there are only 15 people on the planet, > feedback from shield strain would easily kill all life on the planet Why waste a planetary shield on 15 people? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:30:03 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <3d238905_2@news.cybersurf.net> -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:hXKU8.542333$%y.35878455@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > It was a new discovery in that episode. I would think people would have > noticed if it slowed them down from 750,000c in 'That Which Survives' to > around 9,000c in the Next Generation era. > Ok, but we also know that warp speeds are regional, and some regions might allow faster speeds than others. In fact, the Enterprise was probably sticking to the fast regions to get the most speed out of its engines for the purposes of fast exploration. > > > > That was the fusion reactors for the impulse deck. The antimatter reactors > would be more powerful. > Yet we've _never_ seen a Starfleet vessel go up in a _really_ huge explosion. > > > Well, if those nuke-tipped air-to-air missiles (what is the point of that, > anyway?) To break up Soviet bomber formations. > had infrared targeting, they might hit the impulse engines, which > were already having enough trouble from prior damage. > Interesting. Though I doubt the the high-yield AAMs were heat seaking. Does anyone know? Hell, does anyone know that the missiles on that aircraft were nuke-tipped? Is there a quote? They could have been sidewinders! > > > > Do they actually do this? No? And what did they mean by destroy? Hell, > > pollution is "destroying" our planet right now! > > "Destroying a planet" in TOS seemed to refer only to the eradication of > civilization/population from the surface. For example, Kirk said "Cestus > III has been destroyed" in Arena, but he only referred to the base, which > still had a few buildings and objects standing. > Yeah. > > > > Sure. He might have developed some new weapon. Yet, he didn't. > > No new weapon would be needed, though he would need a lot of time, probably. > The Enterprise seemed to be a match for three Klingon ships. If that is > true in all respects, it would take him three times as long to perform a > General Order 24. > Why? Shouldn't it go 3 times faster? Or are you saying that 3 Klingons ships were needed to perform the operation? > No, it had a neutronium hull. Kirk blew the ship inside the thing in the > hopes that he could damage whatever made it work. > Why couldn't they just make a nuke and throw it in the damn thing? > > But I thought that sublight ships couldn't fire on ships at warp! > > Says who? I don't know if it matters, though, because I'm pretty sure the > Orion ship slowed when Kirk cut power, feigning severe damage. > If Kirk hit it at warp, than it makes warp strafing a laughable concept since all you need to do is lead the target and blast it (since it won't be able to maneuver very well). If it was not at warp, then there's no case here at all. > > > It was actually half the atmosphere, I think. > I wish the babies had provided more quotes. > > Proof that it was a phaser _pistol_ as opposed to the phaser cannon that > > killed all the barbarians? > > Nobody had a phaser cannon. They had the pistol of Tracey, and two or > three more from the Enterprise crew. When Tracey's ship arrived, they sent > a landing party. Tracey stayed behind for some reason, but his men > returned, carrying back a plague. There was never a chance for them to send > a phaser cannon, and Kirk certainly didn't bring one along. > We saw its [the phaser cannon's] anti-armour mode in "The Cage", and we heard dialogue suggestive of its anti-infantry capabilities in "The Omega Glory". In that episode, Captain Tracy told Kirk that his men drained four of their phasers in order to kill "thousands" of attacking Yangs (a classic scenario for a defensive HMG). One might assume that he refers to regular hand phasers rather than heavy weapons like the stabilized gun in "The Cage" or the large rifle in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", but that is a bizarre and unjustifiable interpretation, for several reasons: 1.. No Visual Evidence: We never saw this battle or the drained phasers. We know that heavier weapons do exist, and would be appropriate for a large-scale battle. Therefore, there is no reason to assume that they must have used hand phasers. It is questionable even to assume that they probably used hand phasers; is Captain Tracy had a starship, he probably had access to the same kind of weapons that Captain Pike and Captain Kirk did, so why wouldn't he have used them? 2.. Human ergonomics: Handguns have an extremely limited effective range because of the limitations of a human being trying to aim a one-handed weapon. These limitations will be just as important in the 23rd century as they are today; as Khan Noonian Singh pointed out in "Space Seed", there may have been technical advancement in the 23rd century, but man himself has not changed at all. If thousands of primitives charged at men armed only with handguns, they would overrun the defenders in short order because the defenders' weaponry would be ineffective until the attackers are already within range for primitive weapons like spears and arrows. 3.. Power Packs: Phaser power packs were found in the hands of dead Yangs, but TOS-era hand phasers have integral fuel cells rather than removable ammunition clips, as we saw in "The Galileo Seven" where Scotty's phaser discharge procedure required the entire phaser rather than removable power packs. So if their hand phasers had integral fuel cells, then what were these phaser power packs used for? Obviously, for an entirely different type of phaser, such as a sustained-fire weapon like that seen in "The Cage". 4.. Yang Bodies: The bodies of dead Yangs were left on the battlefield after the massacre. Early TOS-era hand phasers did not appear to have as many attenuation settings as later models. They appeared to have only two settings: stun and kill. Moreover, those are the only settings we ever heard mentioned by any of the characters on the show. Since the Yangs' bodies did not disappear, this strongly suggests that a weapon other than a hand phaser was used. It's logically obvious that Captain Tracy must have used large weapons on the Yangs, and the fact that we've actually seen such TOS-era weapons is merely icing on the cake. Of course, this does beg the question of why no such weapons were available for the garrison in "Siege of AR-588" or the ground troops in "Nor the Battle to the Strong", but I reiterate that a general downward trend in Federation ground combat capabilities is very well established. http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/Guns-ST.html > > > 2. The atmosphere is poisonous and there are only 15 people on the planet, > > feedback from shield strain would easily kill all life on the planet > > Why waste a planetary shield on 15 people? > It was a penal colony. The shield contained the prisoners and prevented beam outs or spacecraft entry/exit. -=Doomriser ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 11:13:01 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <15WU8.116406$Ca2.6266957@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> -------- "Doomriser" wrote in message news:3d238905_2@news.cybersurf.net... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:hXKU8.542333$%y.35878455@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > It was a new discovery in that episode. I would think people would have > > noticed if it slowed them down from 750,000c in 'That Which Survives' to > > around 9,000c in the Next Generation era. > > > Ok, but we also know that warp speeds are regional, and some regions might > allow faster speeds than others. Technically we don't know that. It's a guess, and explains a lot, but just a guess. > > That was the fusion reactors for the impulse deck. The antimatter > reactors > > would be more powerful. > > > Yet we've _never_ seen a Starfleet vessel go up in a _really_ huge > explosion. The Pasteur blew nicely. The Grissom and Enterprise-D did pretty well, too. > > Well, if those nuke-tipped air-to-air missiles (what is the point of that, > > anyway?) > > To break up Soviet bomber formations. Ah, okay, cool. > > > had infrared targeting, they might hit the impulse engines, which > > were already having enough trouble from prior damage. > > > > Interesting. Though I doubt the the high-yield AAMs were heat seaking. Does > anyone know? Hell, does anyone know that the missiles on that aircraft were > nuke-tipped? Is there a quote? They could have been sidewinders! They were nuke-tipped, according to Spock. I don't remember the precise quote, but I'll vouch for it. > > > Sure. He might have developed some new weapon. Yet, he didn't. > > > > No new weapon would be needed, though he would need a lot of time, > probably. > > The Enterprise seemed to be a match for three Klingon ships. If that is > > true in all respects, it would take him three times as long to perform a > > General Order 24. > > > > Why? Shouldn't it go 3 times faster? Or are you saying that 3 Klingons ships > were needed to perform the operation? No, the Klingon was saying his ship could wipe out the planet. If his ship was a battlecruiser, and if a battlecruiser equals 1/3 Enterprise, then it should take him three times longer. > > No, it had a neutronium hull. Kirk blew the ship inside the thing in the > > hopes that he could damage whatever made it work. > > > > Why couldn't they just make a nuke and throw it in the damn thing? They did. :) Making a nuke could probably only have been done on the Enterprise, since there was very little left of the Constellation. It probably would have taken time to make something appropriate, especially if the ship only usually carried deuterium for fusion fuel. They'd have to go to the trouble of making heavy water or lithium deuteride to make the bomb useful (not a gas), and make a casing, and all that. If they were making a thermonuclear bomb like we are used to, they would also have had to make a fission bomb while they were at it, which might have required uranium and plutonium that the ship might not normally carry, adding to the time. Unless they had a 97.835 megaton bomb plan in the computer somewhere, they would also have to design it. All of that would have to be done while the ship was running for its life, low on power, with reserves falling fast. They would also probably be taking some of the deuterium they were using at the time to make the bomb. Kirk's plan was faster. :) > > > Proof that it was a phaser _pistol_ as opposed to the phaser cannon that > > > killed all the barbarians? > > > > Nobody had a phaser cannon. They had the pistol of Tracey, and two or > > three more from the Enterprise crew. When Tracey's ship arrived, they > sent > > a landing party. Tracey stayed behind for some reason, but his men > > returned, carrying back a plague. There was never a chance for them to > send > > a phaser cannon, and Kirk certainly didn't bring one along. > > > > We saw its [the phaser cannon's] anti-armour mode in "The Cage", and we > heard dialogue suggestive of its anti-infantry capabilities in "The Omega > Glory". In that episode, Captain Tracy told Kirk that his men drained four > of their phasers in order to kill "thousands" of attacking Yangs (a classic > scenario for a defensive HMG). One might assume that he refers to regular > hand phasers rather than heavy weapons like the stabilized gun in "The Cage" > or the large rifle in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", but that is a bizarre > and unjustifiable interpretation, for several reasons: > 1.. No Visual Evidence: We never saw this battle or the drained phasers. We saw the drained phasers. They were pistols. Enterprise personnel also found drained phaser power packs, which were little things that would have fit in the pistols. That is how they came to suspect Tracey. > We know that heavier weapons do exist, and would be appropriate for a > large-scale battle. Therefore, there is no reason to assume that they must > have used hand phasers. It is questionable even to assume that they probably > used hand phasers; is Captain Tracy had a starship, he probably had access > to the same kind of weapons that Captain Pike and Captain Kirk did, so why > wouldn't he have used them? When would he have had them beamed down, and who would have done the beaming? His crew was dying of a plague, and if they were as honorable as the Enterprise crew, they would not have beamed him heavy artillery on a pre-warp world. Besides, it was only after his crew died that he started learning of how old the people there were, and got his crazy idea of the planet being a fountain of youth, and that he had to defend the village from the Yangs. > 2.. Human ergonomics: Handguns have an extremely limited effective range > because of the limitations of a human being trying to aim a one-handed > weapon. These limitations will be just as important in the 23rd century as > they are today; as Khan Noonian Singh pointed out in "Space Seed", there may > have been technical advancement in the 23rd century, but man himself has not > changed at all. If thousands of primitives charged at men armed only with > handguns, they would overrun the defenders in short order because the > defenders' weaponry would be ineffective until the attackers are already > within range for primitive weapons like spears and arrows. Modern handguns have a very limited effective range, but that is a problem with short barrels and slow projectiles. Two hands are better than one, but if you're firing a beam weapon with a visible beam, you get instant targeting feedback and can adjust your aim. You also don't have to worry about the bullet dropping due to gravity. You'll do a lot better, and have much better effective range, limited only by line of sight and steady hands. Of course, Tracey was overrun eventually. The Yangs sacrificed hundreds to draw him into the open, and then started pouring toward him in more thousands. He said something like "and they came, and they came... we killed thousands of them, and still they came!" Between Tracey and the Enterprise party (minus one that Tracey vaporized, including phaser), there were a maximum of four phaser pistols observed on the planet. Tracey could only have used two at a time, so one or two inexperienced Kohms were also firing. If each phaser killed 500 men (total two thousand, satisfying "thousands"), that is not a bad day's work. > 3.. Power Packs: Phaser power packs were found in the hands of dead Yangs, > but TOS-era hand phasers have integral fuel cells rather than removable > ammunition clips, as we saw in "The Galileo Seven" where Scotty's phaser > discharge procedure required the entire phaser rather than removable power > packs. So if their hand phasers had integral fuel cells, then what were > these phaser power packs used for? Obviously, for an entirely different type > of phaser, such as a sustained-fire weapon like that seen in "The Cage". No, that doesn't hold water. The Cage weapon was powered from orbit. Remember Spock on the Enterprise saying their circuits were heating? Besides, if those little phaser handles were charging something that big, I'd be impressed. Also, Scotty's discharge move might not have been because the power packs were integral. It could just as easily have been the only way he had handy at the time to discharge them, since I doubt shuttles usually would have a "plug your phaser in here" port. It is worth mentioning here that Wah Chang designed the phasers with power packs in mind. The handles were removable power packs. The only time we actually see handles without phasers is Omega Glory. There's a good article on racprops.com, but I can't get it to pull up right now. You might want to try it, though: www.racprops.com/issue1/firstphasers/pg5.php > 4.. Yang Bodies: The bodies of dead Yangs were left on the battlefield > after the massacre. Early TOS-era hand phasers did not appear to have as > many attenuation settings as later models. They appeared to have only two > settings: stun and kill. Moreover, those are the only settings we ever heard > mentioned by any of the characters on the show. Since the Yangs' bodies did > not disappear, this strongly suggests that a weapon other than a hand phaser > was used. Yeah, but we also saw a phaser on widebeam in "Enemy Within". Widebeam plus kill could equal bodies. Or maybe he stunned them a long long time. :) > It's logically obvious that Captain Tracy must have used large weapons on No, it is logically obvious that he didn't, because he never had the chance to get anything bigger than what he had, which was a simple pistol. If he had the opportunity to gear up, I would have expected him to get some photon grenades, too, but they aren't mentioned either. > http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/Guns-ST.html Oh, so you were quoting. > > > > > > 2. The atmosphere is poisonous and there are only 15 people on the > planet, > > > feedback from shield strain would easily kill all life on the planet > > > > Why waste a planetary shield on 15 people? > > > It was a penal colony. The shield contained the prisoners and prevented beam > outs or spacecraft entry/exit. No, no, I don't think you realize what I mean. I'm asking why they needed a shield that covered the whole planet. You can't beam too far through solid rock, and a ship would not be able to get through a small shield covering the actual penal colony. Shielding the entire surface of the planet was a terrible waste, but apparently one they could afford. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stuart Mackey" Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 19:26:42 +1200 Subject: Re: [OT] The Trekkie Creationist vs. The Warsie Evolutionist Message-ID: <9ko58g$67j$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> -------- "James Teeple" wrote in message news:CEMb7.5621$1p1.477903@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > "Stuart Mackey" wrote in message > news:9ko4mb$5nvbc$1@ID-75806.news.dfncis.de... > > > > "James Teeple" wrote in message > > news:gxMb7.5617$1p1.477040@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > > > > > "Julius Harper" wrote in message > > > news:I9Mb7.8848$ig6.5167988@typhoon.we.rr.com... > > > > > "Julius Harper" wrote in message > > > > > news:CFGb7.19518$Ug.4440186@typhoon.we.rr.com... > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > Howso? > > > > > > > > > > [SNIP Load of BS] > > > > > > Julius, every single one of your old, tired, strawman creationists > > arguments > > > is dealt with IN DETAIL on www.talkorgins.org. If you are too damn lazy > > to > > > click on the link, too damn stupid to understand what is being said, or > > > simply enjoy trolling on a sci-fi debating newsgroup instead of jumping > > > into the tank with the real big fish, then fine, that's your problem. > > > > > > I enjoy a good off topic debate as much as anyone, but this is only a > > > blantantly obvious attempt at starting a flamewar. > > > > > > Jesus H. Christ. If someone has pissed me off enough to post here > after > > > almost two years of lurking, Satan must be throwing snowballs. > > > > You lurked here for Two years? > > > On and off for two years. It's been entertaining. I also love the fanfics. As this is you first post, Welcome to ASVS ! And the fanfic is rather good, if I do say so myself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: majsvetlanna@aol.comspamkill (Maj Svetlanna) Date: 04 Jul 2002 07:13:02 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <20020704031302.26794.00002720@mb-da.aol.com> -------- >"Tomorrow is Yesterday" - an accidental slingshot around a black hole throws >the Enterprise back to 1967. While cruising through the upper atmosphere in >excess of Mach 1, Spock notes with little concern that if Christopher fires >his payload of nuclear-tipped air-to-air missiles at the unshielded >Enterprise, they "could cause some damage." The Enterprise then locks the >jet in a tractor beam, but even after dropping to lowest power, the tractor >causes the plane to fragment. Regarding this incident; I don't think they realize how pathetic it makes the Enterprise look even if those missiles only cause some damage to an unshielded Enterprise, for all nuclear weapons are _not_ created equal. The plane in question was an F-104 Starfighter. There was at this point in history precisely one air-to-air nuclear tipped missile in the US arsenal, the AIM-26 "Nuclear Falcon". It used the W-54 GAR-11 warhead.. Which had a yield of 250 tons. That's right, not kilotons, but TONS. One QUARTER of a kiloton. I have been able to find any source that says that the F-104 can in fact carry the F-4, or the "Genie" unguided nuclear rocket which has a similiar warhead; however, it would not be impossible for it to do so and I may yet find evidence that it can: I seem to recall it was nuclear-capable. The maximum number of hardpoints it has is six, and thus we can generously say that the F-104 in question was carrying six F-4s or Genies; together they comprise the only nuclear capable air-to-air weapons. That gives the F-104 an ability to fire 1.5 kilotons spread out among six different projectiles. An argument for the E-Nil having awesome capabilities simply falls apart, even if she would suffer only "slight damage" from this with her shields down - And I do not seem to recall the quote saying just that. An Imperial ship would not even notice 1.5 kT detonating against its hull in six seperate and unfocused bursts; for those detonations to be sufficiently threatening to the Enterprise as to force her to take potentially history-altering actions, the conclusion is obvious, and unpleasant for the trekkies. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 11:32:29 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Maj Svetlanna" wrote in message news:20020704031302.26794.00002720@mb-da.aol.com... > >"Tomorrow is Yesterday" - an accidental slingshot around a black hole throws > >the Enterprise back to 1967. While cruising through the upper atmosphere in > >excess of Mach 1, Spock notes with little concern that if Christopher fires > >his payload of nuclear-tipped air-to-air missiles at the unshielded > >Enterprise, they "could cause some damage." The Enterprise then locks the > >jet in a tractor beam, but even after dropping to lowest power, the tractor > >causes the plane to fragment. > > Regarding this incident; I don't think they realize how pathetic it makes the > Enterprise look even if those missiles only cause some damage to an unshielded > Enterprise, for all nuclear weapons are _not_ created equal. > > The plane in question was an F-104 Starfighter. There was at this point in > history precisely one air-to-air nuclear tipped missile in the US arsenal, the > AIM-26 "Nuclear Falcon". There were two, both capable of being fitted on the F-101. The F-104, however, is commonly thought of as a non-nuclear short-range interceptor/supersonic superiority fighter, normally carrying Sidewinders. Bear in mind, though, that this is the same Star Trek timeline which had orbiting nuclear missile platforms in 1968, so there's no telling what that bird was carrying. > I have been able to find any source that says that the F-104 can in fact carry > the F-4, or the "Genie" unguided nuclear rocket which has a similiar warhead; > however, it would not be impossible for it to do so and I may yet find evidence > that it can: I seem to recall it was nuclear-capable. http://www.photovault.com/Link/Military/AirForce/Aircraft/F-101Voodoo.html You couldn't find it because it is the AIR-2A, not F-4. The Genie had 1.5 kiloton yield. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 03:03:10 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Doomriser" wrote > I just found a great list from...you guessed it...E1701! I haven't seen all > of these before so I don't have all the rebuttals but I'll try later. > > Sigh... I'm gonna have to sit down and list the episodes, one by one, > pointing out every example... again... aren't I? > > "The Cage" - Lee Kelso states that the Enterprise could bring to bear enough > firepower to "blast half a continent". Even assuming a continent the size of > Australia, and taking a minimalist approach to the defination of "blast", > that's a lot of firepower, generated by the Enterprise's laser weapons, > which are later stated to be vastly inferior to phasers. Hmm.. no time frame on this act. What does this tell us? Jack and shit. We've been able to blast half a continent for over 40 years. > "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - Enterprise travels to edge of the galaxy > for the first time - from Earth, the nearest possible edge, heading straight > up, is something close to 2,500 LY. This episode is also notable for Spock > ordering the helmsman to engage "time-warp drives, take us into hyperspace!" The U.S.S. Valient did this 100 years before the Enterprise. So how long did it take them to get there? How long did it take the Enterprise to get there? The Enterprise is on a 5 year mission. We only saw three years.... > "The Naked Time" - A risky cold-start of the ship's impulse engines flings > the ship into reverse at "a speed greater than is possible in normal space", Wow...the ship's never done THAT before...... > and back in time 71 hours. Earlier, Scotty states that if their intermix > formula is wrong, they'll "go up in the biggest blast since the last star > around these parts went supernova." "Biggest blast since..." Again, so? When they arrive at Psi 2000, they find an ancient, dead world, with nothing else going on in the system. A beerfart in a whirlwind would be considered the "biggest blast" since the last star around those parts went supernova. > "Balance of Terror" - Already remarked on, a plasma weapon vaporizes an > asteroid that is at least 2 miles across, in the single shot. Sorry Phalanx, > the outpost's shields do fail after the second hit. The third vapes the > asteroid, and leaves only a smattering of brittle remneants of the hardest > substance known to their science. Bare minimum, 180 GT. Enterprise survives > the first hit, which chases them at greater than warp 8, and is able to > manuever. What E1701 doesn't seem to remember is, is that Kirk retreated from the plasma blast at emergency warp, and the blast that hit the Enterprise was a significantly reduced one that all but dissipated before it hit the ship. > A second hit brings down their shields, and a nuke at point-blank > range causes damage to the phaser control room. Total casualties at the end > of the battle: Romulan ship and all hands, phaser specialist Robert > Tomlinson. Apparantly, E7101 hasn't watched the episode in a while. After the first engagement with the Romulans, where the Enterprise recieved no damage, the phaser control circuit burns out. Are the weapons systems on this Uber connie really this bad? The Enterprise suffered radiation damage from a nuclear explosion less than 100 meters away, and was badly listing and "at the mercy" of the Romulans. 22 casualties were reported by Dr. McCoy, mainly from radiation burns. The Enterprise suffered overloads and circuit burnouts, all weapons down except for forward phasers, and engine power was knocked out. At the end, the Romulan ship self destructed. > "Arena" - A recording from Cestus III states that the Gorn approached at > sublight along standard Federation approach lanes, before knocking out the > planet's phaser batteries in their first salvo. And this means....what? > "The Alternative Factor" - the entrance of the Lazarus from an antimatter > universe generates a violent space-time ripple which Starfleet Command > states unequivacably was "felt in all quadrants of the galaxy, and beyond." Considering that at the time of TNG, only 19% of the galaxy has been explored, this is nothing more than hyperbole. Unless we are led to believe the Klingons, Dominion, and the Borg chimed in with news reports. And immediately too. This would also indicate that Starfleet command has been communicating with galaxies "far beyond" our own. This would seem to fly in the face of the fact that the Enterprise couldn't communicate with Starfleet command for three weeks in "Balance of Terror". > "Tomorrow is Yesterday" - an accidental slingshot around a black hole throws > the Enterprise back to 1967. While cruising through the upper atmosphere in > excess of Mach 1, Spock notes with little concern that if Christopher fires > his payload of nuclear-tipped air-to-air missiles at the unshielded > Enterprise, they "could cause some damage." Spock has a right to worry. See above. And that was WITH shields. > "A Taste of Armageddon" - The computers on the surface list the Enterprise > as having been destroyed by a tricobalt warhead, and the landing party > killed when the enemy "materialized fusion bombs over the city." When held > hostage, Kirk declares that he'll show Anan 7 what devestation really is, > and orders Scotty to carry out General Order 24 in two hours. When Anan asks > what he's done, Kirk states that if he isn't released by that deadline, the > Enterprise will level the surface of the planet and kill everyone on the > planet. Scott: "All cities and installations on Eminiar VII have been located and fed into our fire control computer" . . . . "In one hour and forty-five minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed." "Entire inhabited surface" could merely mean razing the buildings. Note in the context above, Scott says the operation will begin in one hour and forty-five minutes, but doesn't specify how long this will take. > The Eminians, panicking, attack the Enterprise with a sonic > disrupter Scotty rates at 10^18 decibles, or 11 trillion times louder than a > 767 on take-off. Far from being a bluff, Scotty moves out of range of the > disruptors, and prepares to carry out the order when Kirk reports back in, > having destroyed the planetary computers. The disruptors used by the Eminiar used sonic energy but was only effective to low orbit (where there is still some atmosphere to work with). > "Errand of Mercy" - When trying to convince the Organians to fight against > the Klingons, he tells that that they will become slaves of the Empire. The > head counciler retorts that if they resist, the Klingons might simply > destroy the planet, and be spared the trouble. When the Organians finally > decide to intervene, as the Klingon and Federation fleets gather in the > system, the counciler states that they cannot permit a war between the > Klingons and the Federation, because the conflict in their system would > almost certainly result in the destruction of their planet, and would cost > far too many lives overall. "Destroy" not specified. And then the Organians never interfere with the Klingons and humans again.. > "Friday's Child" - When the Capellans turn on him, the Klingon agent > declares that with the Enterprise off chasing a phony distress call, that > his ship could "burn this planet to a cinder." Kirk, Spock, and McCoy take > him deadly seriously. Proof they took him "deadly seriously"? Did Spock repeat the remark? Did anyone? Since the two tribes are camped out in teepees, how hard would it be to burn thwem down? > "The Doomsday Machine" - Was recharging at the time, eating planet debris. It probably scales its blasts to the size of its targets so as NOT to vaporize it. Otherwise, how would it eat? > "The Changling" - Nomad "sterilizes" the entire Malurian star system, in > very short order. The population of 4 billion is exterminated. When it > attacks the Enterprise, each of the three shots it fires are stated to rate > as equivalent to 90 photon torpedoes, and the 1.5 meter probe easily > withstands a single torpedo strike. The third shot (equivalent to a total of > 270 photon torpedoes) brings the Enterprise's shields down. Yet when Kirk fires one photon torpedo at Nomad, he wonders aloud how it absorbed that much energy... > "Mirror, Mirror" - In the mirror universe, Kirk is ordered to exterminate > the entire Halkan population. The first part involves utterly destroying > their cities the moment they come over the horizon, followed by the > extermination of the entire rest of the populace, so that the Empire can > mine the dilithium there itself. Again, so? Phasers destroy primitie Halkan cities. Wooptie Do. And again, no time frame. Also: Kirk :"We will level your planet and take what we want . . . that is destruction. You'll die as a race." Would be difficult to "level a planet" then "take what they want" wouldn't it? Kirk is trying to impress the "Mirror Mirror" crew. > "The Deadly Years" - the Enterprise strays into the Romulan neutral zone, > and is attacked by the same class of Bird of Prey as in "Balance of > Terror" - it withstands multiple strikes from the plasma weapon, then is > transmitted an order to surrender. Yet it is NOT attacked by the SAME weapon. In "Balance of Terror", they used that awesome plasma cannon on the prototype ship (that was destroyed). The destructive plasma was red. However, in THIS episode, when the Enterprise is hit, the weapons look like Klingon photon torpedoes as they appeared in "Errand of Mercy". > Kirk broadcasts a clear message to > Starfleet, stating that he will self-destruct the ship using a newly > installed Corbomite Device, which will instantly destroy *everything* within > 200,000 kilometers, and warns that starships should avoid the entire area > for at least several weeks after the blast. A patented Kirk bluff which doesn't exist, also used in "The Corbomite Maneuver" > "Bread and Circuses" - once again, captured by the locals, Kirk invokes > General Order 24, which scares the shit out of Captain Merrick, who was a > classmate of Kirk's at the Academy. (20th Century) Roman Proconsul, :"From what I understand, your vessel could lay waste to the entire surface of the world from orbit." Hyperbole based on what a 20th century roman would expect from a powerful space vessel. And again, no time frame given. > "Journey to Babel" - the Enterprise is sabotaged by an Orion pirate posing > as an Andorian aide. No, it wasn't. > "Obsession" - Kirk finally lures the cloud-creature back to its home planet, > Tycho IV. To lure it, they bait it to the surface with human blood, then set > a charge of one-ounce of TOS uber-antimatter... the resulting explosion > tears the atmosphere of the planet off. Wrong. The resulting explosion, according to Spock, would tear HALF the atmosphere off the planet. How big is the planet? From orbit, its bright red. On the surface, the sky is red. Is it Class M? > "The Immunity Syndrome" - investigating the destruction of the USS Intrepid, > and wiped out billions of people in Gamma 7A, they discover an 11,000 > mile-long space-ameoba, which consumes energy, both mechanical and > biological. Spock discovers that the plasma within the cell is largely > gelatinous, with a liquid core near the center and nucleus. The Enterprise > persues Spock's shuttle into the heart of the creature, and plants a bomb. > The resulting explosion virtually atomizes the cell. The cell was ready to reproduce. The explosion split the membrane and tossed the Enterprise and the shuttle free of the area. > "A Piece of the Action" - Enterprise uses ship phasers on stun to knock out > an entire block's worth of fighting mobsters in one fell swoop. Fun side > note, Oxmyx tells Kirk to meet up with his boys at "the yellow fire plug at > the end of the street." It takes Scotty less than 5 seconds to pinpoint the > exact location... Right. After Kirk calls him and tells him to aim the phasers in a one block radius around his location he's TRANSMITTING from. > "By Any Other Name" - The Enterprise's second trip through the galactic > barrier, on a beeline for Andromeda. Due to the machinations of aliens from Andromeda. > "Patterns of Force" - when tracked by an incoming thermonuke at warp (both > at warp speeds, moving towards each other), Enterprise calmly blows it away > with a phaser shot. Oooh..... uh.. so? They did that in "Balance of Terror" too. > "The Ultimate Computer" - during the final wargames exercise, M-5 goes > bezerk. It suddenly jumps to warp 4, and strafes the fleet which is at > sublight, with full phasers. Bullshit. Watch the episode. The fleet is at warp. > "The Omega Glory" - on the ground, using a single phaser pistol and a > handful of power packs, kills *thousands* of charging barbarian hordes > easily. E7101 should get his facts straight. Spock found two of Captain Tracy's reserve phaser power packs among "several hundred" Yang bodies. That would be a total of three packs Tracy had, at least, for "several hundred" enemies. sev·er·al - 2 a : more than one b : more than two but fewer than many c chiefly dialect : being a great many > To save the town from the oncoming horde, he asks Kirk for four > phaser pistols and three extra power packs each. Wrong. E7101 should get his facts straight. He asks for ten, with three extra power packs each. This is AFTER this scene: > "They sacrificed hundreds of warriors, just to lure us out into the open," he says, "then they came, > and they came, and they came. We cut down thousands of them, and still they came." Captain Tracy using the four phasers from the landing party, AND their two extra power packs each. IN ADDITION to the Coms fighting alongside him using THEIR weapons.... > "Elaan of Troyus" - The Enterprise is sabotaged by one of the Dohlman's > guards, who is in the pay of the Klingons. Wrong. E7101 should get his facts straight. The guard IS a Klingon. > They are stuck at sublight, > trying to fend off a Klingon ship which remains at warp. On emergency power > only, they manage to maintain the shields for several passes of the Klingon > battlecruiser. The Klingon ship was NOT warp-strafing. It accelerated to warp 7 as it passed over the Enterprise, but when it was making its approach to the Enterprise and firing, it was travelling at low sublight. At no time during that episode did the Klingon ship EVER approach the E-Nil for a strafing run at warp- Sulu ALWAYS called out the range as the Klingon ship approached, and he had time to call out "seventy thousand kilometres, sixty thousand kilometres" etc. which would have been impossible if the ship had been covering more than 300,000km every second. > "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" - Third time through the galactic barrier - Due to the machinations of an insane man screwing around in engineering. > they apparently got so far from the Milky Way before Larry Marvick was > stopped, that they required extremely precise navigation to return. From yet another alien. > "For the World is Hollow, And I Have Touched the Sky" - The Enterprise is > diverted to destroy an asteroid on a collision course with Daran V. The > Asteroid ship Yonada, which they continue to believe they can easily destroy > if need-be, is large enough that from the interior, it resembles a planetary > surface. It is a hollow artificial ship that LOOKS like an asteroid. Spock cripples the Enterprise in the attempt, to stop a REAL asteroid in "The Paradise Syndrome" and doesn't even slow it down. > "Day of the Dove" - Fourth trip through the galactic barrier... Due to the machinations of yet another alien... > "That Which Survives" - The Enterprise is hurled some 990.7 light-years from > the planet where the landing party is stranded. The trip damaged the > Enterprise's engines, and Spock notes that at their maximum sustainable > warp, Warp 8.4, it will take 11 hours to return to the planet. And....? > "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" - Under the control of Bele, the > Enterprise travels to Cheron, 90,000 light-years distant, in under two days. Due to the machinations of yet another alien... > "Whom Gods Destroy" - the planet is shielded, and Kirk and Spock are trapped > within the penal colony. Scotty states that the Enterprise can batter down > the shields, but that the backwash would destroy everything on the surface, > even if the firing point is on the opposite side of the planet, where the > shield is weakest. In the meantime, Garth shows off a chemical explosive - a > piece smaller than a grain of sand vaporizes an Orion slave girl, and > generates a sizable earthquake. Garth states that if he drops the 20 oz > bottle of the stuff, that it would vaporize the entire planet. Garth of Izar was a looney locked up in a looney bin. So how do we know he didn't siphon of some antimatter one of the facilities' shuttles, or something? I mean, when did this insane man have time to set up a lab and make this explosive he claims he invented? http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 13:20:51 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:ui87b4jcd42re3@corp.supernews.com... > > "The Alternative Factor" - the entrance of the Lazarus from an antimatter > > universe generates a violent space-time ripple which Starfleet Command > > states unequivacably was "felt in all quadrants of the galaxy, and > beyond." > > Considering that at the time of TNG, only 19% of the galaxy has been > explored, this is nothing more than hyperbole. Not necessarily hyperbole, since this was back when "quadrant" and "sector" were interchangeable. But, "galaxy" would be a stretch. > > "The Changling" - Nomad "sterilizes" the entire Malurian star system, in > > very short order. The population of 4 billion is exterminated. When it > > attacks the Enterprise, each of the three shots it fires are stated to > rate > > as equivalent to 90 photon torpedoes, and the 1.5 meter probe easily > > withstands a single torpedo strike. The third shot (equivalent to a total > of > > 270 photon torpedoes) brings the Enterprise's shields down. > > Yet when Kirk fires one photon torpedo at Nomad, he wonders aloud how it > absorbed that much energy... Nobody mentioned shields on Nomad at that point, so Kirk was probably amazed that a metal object ate a torpedo blast unaided. But, yeah, this example can be ignored, since the Enterprise could never stand up to 90 of her own weapons any other time, or the M-5 wargames would have been really boring. > > "The Deadly Years" - the Enterprise strays into the Romulan neutral zone, > > and is attacked by the same class of Bird of Prey as in "Balance of > > Terror" - it withstands multiple strikes from the plasma weapon, then is > > transmitted an order to surrender. > > Yet it is NOT attacked by the SAME weapon. In "Balance of Terror", they used > that awesome plasma cannon on the prototype ship (that was destroyed). The > destructive plasma was red. However, in THIS episode, when the Enterprise is > hit, > the weapons look like Klingon photon torpedoes as they appeared in "Errand > of Mercy". You mean when they hit the ship, or when they were fired? When they hit the ship, they looked like Klingon torpedoes, but when they were fired, they were the Romulan plasma weapons. Since this was the only time we saw them when they weren't on a viewscreen, they probably are actually just white glowball things, but the viewscreen is rigged to turn down the brightness or something. > > "Bread and Circuses" - once again, captured by the locals, Kirk invokes > > General Order 24, which scares the shit out of Captain Merrick, who was a > > classmate of Kirk's at the Academy. > > (20th Century) Roman Proconsul, :"From what I understand, your vessel could > lay waste to the entire surface of the world from orbit." > > Hyperbole based on what a 20th century roman would expect from a powerful > space vessel. With a former academy cadet and ship captain advising him? > > "Obsession" - Kirk finally lures the cloud-creature back to its home > planet, > > Tycho IV. To lure it, they bait it to the surface with human blood, then > set > > a charge of one-ounce of TOS uber-antimatter... the resulting explosion > > tears the atmosphere of the planet off. > > Wrong. The resulting explosion, according to Spock, would tear HALF the > atmosphere off the planet. How big is the planet? From orbit, its bright > red. On the surface, the sky is red. Is it Class M? It had earth-normal gravity. But, then again, they all do. > > "A Piece of the Action" - Enterprise uses ship phasers on stun to knock > out > > an entire block's worth of fighting mobsters in one fell swoop. Fun side > > note, Oxmyx tells Kirk to meet up with his boys at "the yellow fire plug > at > > the end of the street." It takes Scotty less than 5 seconds to pinpoint > the > > exact location... > > Right. After Kirk calls him and tells him to aim the phasers in a one block > radius around his location he's TRANSMITTING from. Pinpointing the location was a separate example. What is cool is how they tracked the phone line circuits to find the other bosses and beam them around. > > "They sacrificed hundreds of warriors, just to lure us out into the open," > he says, "then they came, > > and they came, and they came. We cut down thousands of them, and still > they came." "killed" not "cut down". > Captain Tracy using the four phasers from the landing party, AND their two > extra power packs each. IN ADDITION to the Coms fighting alongside him using > THEIR weapons.... The Enterprise crew had extra power packs? Where do you get that? It would be the first time. > > "Elaan of Troyus" - The Enterprise is sabotaged by one of the Dohlman's > > guards, who is in the pay of the Klingons. > > They are stuck at sublight, > > trying to fend off a Klingon ship which remains at warp. On emergency > power > > only, they manage to maintain the shields for several passes of the > Klingon > > battlecruiser. > > The Klingon ship was NOT warp-strafing. It accelerated to warp 7 as it > passed over the Enterprise, but when it was making its approach to the > Enterprise and firing, it was travelling at low sublight. At no time during > that episode did the Klingon ship EVER approach the E-Nil for a strafing run > at warp- Sulu ALWAYS called out the range as the Klingon ship approached, > and he had time to call out "seventy thousand kilometres, sixty thousand > kilometres" etc. which would have been > impossible if the ship had been covering more than 300,000km every second. That's not correct. The Klingons made multiple passes: 1st pass- not a warp strafe- The Klingon ship approached at warp six-ish, then apparently slowed down, allowing Sulu to make small incremental range callouts. The Klingons did not fire, hoping the Enterprise would go to warp and blow herself to bits. Elaan goes to sickbay. Changes clothes. Returns wearing dilithium necklace. 2nd pass- not a warp strafe - The Klingon ship approached at sublight from 500,000 kilometers. Ten seconds later, they were at 300,000 kilometers, suggesting a speed of roughly 20,000 kilometers per second. Within a second of Sulu saying 100,000 kilometers, they fired, hitting the ship. Kirk orders Sulu to keep the forward shields to the Klingons. 3rd pass- warp strafe - The Klingon ship approached at a speed which Spock read as "greater than warp seven". Sulu did not call out ranges this time out. Kirk ordered Sulu to turn hard over as the Klingons approached, saying "he's going for our flank." The external shot showed the ship slowly drifting and turning to port. They were hit, apparently shot in the ass. The ship shakes. (Possible extra pass here, since Spock says, several seconds after the 3rd pass, "he passed us again, damage to our number four shield". But, no shaking happens. I can't imagine why Spock would say they'd been passed again, though, if everybody knew that. Another pass at this point would suggest a second warp strafing run.) Dilithium found in Elaan's necklace. 4th pass- probably a warp strafe - This attack run was given neither a range nor a speed, but it was clear that the Klingons were gunning for the number four shield, and the last time they were aiming for what Kirk was protecting, they warp strafed. Also, there is no indication that they slowed from the last run. Kirk orders Sulu hard to port, and the Enterprise turns very quickly, but they are still hit. Shields hold. Number four shield collapses. Impulse power at 31 percent. (Because of another shake-free strafe?)Kirk tries to stall for time while Scotty and Spock try to get the engines back. 5th pass- not a warp strafe - The Enterprise gets warp maneuvering power back online, Kirk plans to pivot at warp two and fire torpedoes. Sulu calls out the ranges, starting at 100,000 kilometers. Kirk orders Chekov to hold fire until minimum range. The Klingons pass, shooting just as shields are brought to full power. The Enterprise jumps to warp two and pivots (using the drifting-left shot from earlier, but much faster) and fires torpedoes, hitting the forward port areas of the Klingon ship. The Klingons withdraw. As you can see, there was _at_least_ one, maybe two, and possibly three or four warp strafes in this episode. Further, if the Klingons did not accelerate to warp after what I call the 5th pass, then the Enterprise was at warp and warp-strafed them back. > > "For the World is Hollow, And I Have Touched the Sky" - The Enterprise is > > diverted to destroy an asteroid on a collision course with Daran V. The > > Asteroid ship Yonada, which they continue to believe they can easily > destroy > > if need-be, is large enough that from the interior, it resembles a > planetary > > surface. > > It is a hollow artificial ship that LOOKS like an asteroid. Spock cripples > the Enterprise in the attempt, to stop a REAL asteroid in "The Paradise > Syndrome" and doesn't even slow it down. The engines were damaged in Paradise Syndrome. > > "That Which Survives" - The Enterprise is hurled some 990.7 light-years > from > > the planet where the landing party is stranded. The trip damaged the > > Enterprise's engines, and Spock notes that at their maximum sustainable > > warp, Warp 8.4, it will take 11 hours to return to the planet. > > And....? That's fast. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:37:09 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote > "Wayne Poe" > > > "The Changling" - Nomad "sterilizes" the entire Malurian star system, in > > > very short order. The population of 4 billion is exterminated. When it > > > attacks the Enterprise, each of the three shots it fires are stated to > > > rate as equivalent to 90 photon torpedoes, and the 1.5 meter probe easily > > > withstands a single torpedo strike. The third shot (equivalent to a > > > total of 270 photon torpedoes) brings the Enterprise's shields down. > > Yet when Kirk fires one photon torpedo at Nomad, he wonders aloud how it > > absorbed that much energy... > Nobody mentioned shields on Nomad at that point, so Kirk was probably amazed > that a metal object ate a torpedo blast unaided. But, yeah, this example > can be ignored, since the Enterprise could never stand up to 90 of her own > weapons any other time, or the M-5 wargames would have been really boring. Agreed. > > Yet it is NOT attacked by the SAME weapon. In "Balance of Terror", they > > used that awesome plasma cannon on the prototype ship (that was destroyed). The > > destructive plasma was red. However, in THIS episode, when the Enterprise > > is hit, the weapons look like Klingon photon torpedoes as they appeared in "Errand > > of Mercy". > You mean when they hit the ship, or when they were fired? When they hit > the ship, they looked like Klingon torpedoes, but when they were fired, they > were the Romulan plasma weapons. Since this was the only time we saw them > when they weren't on a viewscreen, they probably are actually just white > glowball things, but the viewscreen is rigged to turn down the brightness or > something. Nope. Then everything would be a different color in "real space". The logical conclusion is, the "prototype" plama cannon from BoT can't be used on a Romulan ship that want to enjoy warp power. > > (20th Century) Roman Proconsul, :"From what I understand, your vessel > > could lay waste to the entire surface of the world from orbit." > > Hyperbole based on what a 20th century roman would expect from a powerful > > space vessel. > With a former academy cadet and ship captain advising him? This was the Roman Proconsul'squote, BASED on what he was told. And again, no time frame given, and "lay waste" to 20th century civilization shouldn't be much of a challenge. > > Right. After Kirk calls him and tells him to aim the phasers in a one > > block radius around his location he's TRANSMITTING from. > Pinpointing the location was a separate example. Why? Scott was talking to Kirk on his communicator. Kirk ordered the hit, and gave the exact location. > > Captain Tracy using the four phasers from the landing party, AND their two > > extra power packs each. IN ADDITION to the Coms fighting alongside him > > using THEIR weapons.... > The Enterprise crew had extra power packs? Where do you get that? It > would be the first time. The landing party was wearing their weapons belts. The extra packs are included, just like on Tracy's belt. Kirk says "Tracy's extra belt packs" when Spock hands him the evidence. > Kirk orders Sulu to keep the forward shields to the Klingons. > > 3rd pass- warp strafe - The Klingon ship approached at a speed which Spock > read as "greater than warp seven". Sulu did not call out ranges this time > out. Kirk ordered Sulu to turn hard over as the Klingons approached, > saying "he's going for our flank." The external shot showed the ship slowly > drifting and turning to port. They were hit, apparently shot in the ass. > The ship shakes. Right. Now tell me, why the we don't see a "warp effect" around the Klingon ship when we see that external shot of it firing? Could it be that it wasn't at warp? > (Possible extra pass here, since Spock says, several seconds after the 3rd > pass, "he passed us again, damage to our number four shield". But, no > shaking happens. I can't imagine why Spock would say they'd been passed > again, though, if everybody knew that. Another pass at this point would > suggest a second warp strafing run.) Nope. No evidence, especially in light of the above. > 4th pass- probably a warp strafe - This attack run was given neither a range > nor a speed, but it was clear that the Klingons were gunning for the number > four shield, and the last time they were aiming for what Kirk was > protecting, they warp strafed. Also, there is no indication that they > slowed from the last run. Right. Now tell me, why the we don't see a "warp effect" around the Klingon ship when we see that external shot of it firing? Could it be that it wasn't at warp? Another strange thing, according to the external shot of the Enterprise, it WAS clearly at warp for at least that one turn. And BTW, where is that pesky Organian Peace Treaty? > > It is a hollow artificial ship that LOOKS like an asteroid. Spock cripples > > the Enterprise in the attempt, to stop a REAL asteroid in "The Paradise > > Syndrome" and doesn't even slow it down. > The engines were damaged in Paradise Syndrome. Uh yes, by Spock trying to destroy the asteroid.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kamakazie Sith" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:56:46 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:ui95esgpvn9t62@corp.supernews.com... > > 3rd pass- warp strafe - The Klingon ship approached at a speed which > Spock > > read as "greater than warp seven". Sulu did not call out ranges this > time > > out. Kirk ordered Sulu to turn hard over as the Klingons approached, > > saying "he's going for our flank." The external shot showed the ship > slowly > > drifting and turning to port. They were hit, apparently shot in the ass. > > The ship shakes. > > Right. Now tell me, why the we don't see a "warp effect" around the Klingon > ship when we see that external shot of it firing? Could it be that it wasn't > at warp? Umm did we ever see a warp effect in TOS? I don't recall one is the series, but in the movies yes. > > (Possible extra pass here, since Spock says, several seconds after the 3rd > > pass, "he passed us again, damage to our number four shield". But, no > > shaking happens. I can't imagine why Spock would say they'd been passed > > again, though, if everybody knew that. Another pass at this point would > > suggest a second warp strafing run.) > > Nope. No evidence, especially in light of the above. > > > 4th pass- probably a warp strafe - This attack run was given neither a > range > > nor a speed, but it was clear that the Klingons were gunning for the > number > > four shield, and the last time they were aiming for what Kirk was > > protecting, they warp strafed. Also, there is no indication that they > > slowed from the last run. > > Right. Now tell me, why the we don't see a "warp effect" around the Klingon > ship when we see that external shot of it firing? Could it be that it wasn't > at warp? Another strange thing, according to the external shot of the > Enterprise, it WAS clearly at warp for at least that one turn. What warp effect are you refering to? In TOS we NEVER saw a warp effect, IIRC that only came about in the movies. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:50:22 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Kamakazie Sith" > What warp effect are you refering to? In TOS we NEVER saw a warp effect, > IIRC that only came about in the movies. The warp effect in TOS looks like stars are passing the ship. http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kamakazie Sith" Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 03:04:12 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:uia2bg6tv2gjfc@corp.supernews.com... > > "Kamakazie Sith" > > > What warp effect are you refering to? In TOS we NEVER saw a warp effect, > > IIRC that only came about in the movies. > > The warp effect in TOS looks like stars are passing the ship. > > > > > http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html > > According to Darkstar that effect was present. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 20:15:07 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Kamakazie Sith" wrote > > The warp effect in TOS looks like stars are passing the ship. > According to Darkstar that effect was present. He's talking about the wrong effect. Watch it yourself. http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kamakazie Sith" Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 03:30:37 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:uia3ptem61ti30@corp.supernews.com... > > "Kamakazie Sith" wrote > > > > The warp effect in TOS looks like stars are passing the ship. > > > According to Darkstar that effect was present. > > He's talking about the wrong effect. Watch it yourself. > > > > http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html > > > I will if it's on sometime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 04:28:33 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:uia3ptem61ti30@corp.supernews.com... > > "Kamakazie Sith" wrote > > > > The warp effect in TOS looks like stars are passing the ship. > > > According to Darkstar that effect was present. > > He's talking about the wrong effect. Watch it yourself. Wrong effect? TOS had three starfield effects. One did not have motion, another did, and another seemed to have faster motion. These were used interchangeably. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:03:26 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote > Wrong effect? TOS had three starfield effects. One did not have motion, > another did, and another seemed to have faster motion. These were used > interchangeably. The one you label "motion" is not warp. That's simply treading space. The one you label "faster motion" is. Obviously, as you yourself have just pointed out, there ARE two seperate "motion" settings. Unless the Trekkies suddenly want to change that. Anyway, whenever we saw the Klingon ship fire, the starfield was in "motion". Whenever we saw the Enterprise, (said to be stuck at impulse) the starfield was in "motion". When we saw the Enterprise execute that turn I mentioned before, the starfield was in "faster motion". Ok? http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Colin'The Yosemite Bear'Witz" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:25:17 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:uiaa56e154cj5b@corp.supernews.com... > > "DarkStar" wrote > > > Wrong effect? TOS had three starfield effects. One did not have motion, > > another did, and another seemed to have faster motion. These were used > > interchangeably. > > The one you label "motion" is not warp. That's simply treading space. The > one you label "faster motion" is. Obviously, as you yourself have just > pointed out, there ARE two seperate "motion" settings. Unless the Trekkies > suddenly want to change that. Anyway, whenever we saw the Klingon ship fire, > the starfield was in "motion". Whenever we saw the Enterprise, (said to be > stuck at impulse) the starfield was in "motion". When we saw the Enterprise > execute that turn I mentioned before, the starfield was in "faster motion". > Ok? > > > > http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html > > Waiting for some parody to have the bridge crew sitting in their stations and then Spock moves the mouse changing the main display to windows. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 05:44:43 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:uiaa56e154cj5b@corp.supernews.com... > > "DarkStar" wrote > > > Wrong effect? TOS had three starfield effects. One did not have motion, > > another did, and another seemed to have faster motion. These were used > > interchangeably. > > The one you label "motion" is not warp. That's simply treading space. The > one you label "faster motion" is. Obviously, as you yourself have just > pointed out, there ARE two seperate "motion" settings. Unless the Trekkies > suddenly want to change that. Anyway, whenever we saw the Klingon ship fire, > the starfield was in "motion". Whenever we saw the Enterprise, (said to be > stuck at impulse) the starfield was in "motion". When we saw the Enterprise > execute that turn I mentioned before, the starfield was in "faster motion". > Ok? Ok, so long as you don't equate the starfield effect to warping. I thought most of you guys thought "warp stars" weren't real stars anyway? TNG started with something like that too. They had the rainbow streaks, the moving stars, and the non-moving stars. But, they apparently realized that was stupid, so they abandoned it except for stock footage. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:53:10 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote > "Wayne Poe" wrote > > The one you label "motion" is not warp. That's simply treading space. The > > one you label "faster motion" is. Obviously, as you yourself have just > > pointed out, there ARE two seperate "motion" settings. Unless the Trekkies > > suddenly want to change that. Anyway, whenever we saw the Klingon ship > > fire, the starfield was in "motion". Whenever we saw the Enterprise, (said to be > > stuck at impulse) the starfield was in "motion". When we saw the > > Enterprise execute that turn I mentioned before, the starfield was in "faster > > motion". Ok? > Ok, so long as you don't equate the starfield effect to warping. I thought > most of you guys thought "warp stars" weren't real stars anyway? Actually, that may come from RAST. They really CAN'T be real stars, but we just say that's simply a TOS "warp effect" > TNG started with something like that too. They had the rainbow streaks, the > moving stars, and the non-moving stars. But, they apparently realized that > was stupid, so they abandoned it except for stock footage. Must be that full transition from 23rd century tech. LaForge said tech hadn't changed much in 200 years, in "Relics". http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 22:35:33 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:ui95esgpvn9t62@corp.supernews.com... > > "DarkStar" wrote > > > "Wayne Poe" > > > > > "The Changling" - Nomad "sterilizes" the entire Malurian star system, > in > > > > very short order. The population of 4 billion is exterminated. When it > > > > attacks the Enterprise, each of the three shots it fires are stated to > > > > rate as equivalent to 90 photon torpedoes, and the 1.5 meter probe > easily > > > > withstands a single torpedo strike. The third shot (equivalent to a > > > > total of 270 photon torpedoes) brings the Enterprise's shields down. > > > > Yet when Kirk fires one photon torpedo at Nomad, he wonders aloud how it > > > absorbed that much energy... > > > Nobody mentioned shields on Nomad at that point, so Kirk was probably > amazed > > that a metal object ate a torpedo blast unaided. But, yeah, this example > > can be ignored, since the Enterprise could never stand up to 90 of her own > > weapons any other time, or the M-5 wargames would have been really boring. > > Agreed. > > > > > Yet it is NOT attacked by the SAME weapon. In "Balance of Terror", they > > > used that awesome plasma cannon on the prototype ship (that was > destroyed). The > > > destructive plasma was red. However, in THIS episode, when the > Enterprise > > > is hit, the weapons look like Klingon photon torpedoes as they appeared > in "Errand > > > of Mercy". > > > You mean when they hit the ship, or when they were fired? When they hit > > the ship, they looked like Klingon torpedoes, but when they were fired, > they > > were the Romulan plasma weapons. Since this was the only time we saw > them > > when they weren't on a viewscreen, they probably are actually just white > > glowball things, but the viewscreen is rigged to turn down the brightness > or > > something. > > Nope. Then everything would be a different color in "real space". The > logical conclusion is, the "prototype" plama cannon from BoT can't be used > on a Romulan ship that want to enjoy warp power. Don't get me wrong, I think they were less power-hungry than the BoT Bird of Prey used, but we did see them firing the same sort of plasma weapon, not a photon torpedo. > > > (20th Century) Roman Proconsul, :"From what I understand, your vessel > > > could lay waste to the entire surface of the world from orbit." > > > > Hyperbole based on what a 20th century roman would expect from a > powerful > > > space vessel. > > > With a former academy cadet and ship captain advising him? > > This was the Roman Proconsul'squote, BASED on what he was told. And again, > no time frame given, and "lay waste" to 20th century civilization shouldn't > be much of a challenge. Yes, but based on the "Taste of Armageddon" quote, it couldn't take _too_ long. If someone says that they are going to do A at time B, you don't expect them to still be working on A three years later. > > > Right. After Kirk calls him and tells him to aim the phasers in a one > > > block radius around his location he's TRANSMITTING from. > > > Pinpointing the location was a separate example. > > Why? Scott was talking to Kirk on his communicator. Kirk ordered the hit, > and gave the exact location. No, no, no. The original thing that was posted had the stun thing, and _also_ mentioned how Scotty found the fireplug on a street in five seconds. The fireplug thing happened earlier. That was the separate example. Calling down orbital support fire isn't impressive, it is expected. Finding a vaguely described yellow fireplug on an unknown world is pretty cool, though. So is snatching people talking on the phone. > > > Captain Tracy using the four phasers from the landing party, AND their > two > > > extra power packs each. IN ADDITION to the Coms fighting alongside him > > > using THEIR weapons.... > > > The Enterprise crew had extra power packs? Where do you get that? It > > would be the first time. > > The landing party was wearing their weapons belts. The extra packs are > included, just like on Tracy's belt. Kirk says "Tracy's extra belt packs" > when Spock hands him the evidence. Spock says "Tracey's reserve belt packs". But, we don't see those used by the Enterprise crew, and when their phasers are confiscated by Tracey and the Kohms, we don't see any reserve belt packs taken. > > > Kirk orders Sulu to keep the forward shields to the Klingons. > > > > 3rd pass- warp strafe - The Klingon ship approached at a speed which > Spock > > read as "greater than warp seven". Sulu did not call out ranges this > time > > out. Kirk ordered Sulu to turn hard over as the Klingons approached, > > saying "he's going for our flank." The external shot showed the ship > slowly > > drifting and turning to port. They were hit, apparently shot in the ass. > > The ship shakes. > > Right. Now tell me, why the we don't see a "warp effect" around the Klingon > ship when we see that external shot of it firing? Could it be that it wasn't > at warp? The TOS warp effect was moving stars, and we saw that. We didn't see the rainbow streaks like in TNG, but if you're going to claim from that that warp was never used in TOS... > > (Possible extra pass here, since Spock says, several seconds after the 3rd > > pass, "he passed us again, damage to our number four shield". But, no > > shaking happens. I can't imagine why Spock would say they'd been passed > > again, though, if everybody knew that. Another pass at this point would > > suggest a second warp strafing run.) > > Nope. No evidence, especially in light of the above. There is evidence, just circumstantial. Or, the Klingons could have dropped to impulse, turned, accelerated, and fired, but that would probably mean impulse performance you'd want to argue against. > > 4th pass- probably a warp strafe - This attack run was given neither a > range > > nor a speed, but it was clear that the Klingons were gunning for the > number > > four shield, and the last time they were aiming for what Kirk was > > protecting, they warp strafed. Also, there is no indication that they > > slowed from the last run. > > Right. Now tell me, why the we don't see a "warp effect" around the Klingon > ship when we see that external shot of it firing? Could it be that it wasn't > at warp? No, since we do see the moving stars effect you deny. >Another strange thing, according to the external shot of the > Enterprise, it WAS clearly at warp for at least that one turn. Impossible, given the plot. They had not repaired the engines. > > > It is a hollow artificial ship that LOOKS like an asteroid. Spock > cripples > > > the Enterprise in the attempt, to stop a REAL asteroid in "The Paradise > > > Syndrome" and doesn't even slow it down. > > > The engines were damaged in Paradise Syndrome. > > Uh yes, by Spock trying to destroy the asteroid.... No, they raced to the asteroid at warp nine. Kirk's disappearance made them late. That's why Scotty was moaning, and why he later said that Spock couldn't have any more warp nine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 20:06:18 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote > "Wayne Poe" wrote > > Nope. Then everything would be a different color in "real space". The > > logical conclusion is, the "prototype" plama cannon from BoT can't be used > > on a Romulan ship that want to enjoy warp power. > Don't get me wrong, I think they were less power-hungry than the BoT Bird of > Prey used, but we did see them firing the same sort of plasma weapon, not a > photon torpedo. But it can't be THE plasma weapon from "Balance of Terror". Just take a look at the resulting hit once it reaches the Enterprise in "The Deadly Years". It looks nothing like it did in "Balance of Terror". > > This was the Roman Proconsul'squote, BASED on what he was told. And again, > > no time frame given, and "lay waste" to 20th century civilization > > shouldn't be much of a challenge. > Yes, but based on the "Taste of Armageddon" quote, it couldn't take _too_ > long. If someone says that they are going to do A at time B, you don't > expect them to still be working on A three years later. Heh, try telling that to rabid VS Trekkies every single time BDZ is brought up. > No, no, no. The original thing that was posted had the stun thing, and > _also_ mentioned how Scotty found the fireplug on a street in five seconds. > The fireplug thing happened earlier. That was the separate example. > Calling down orbital support fire isn't impressive, it is expected. > Finding a vaguely described yellow fireplug on an unknown world is pretty > cool, though. So is snatching people talking on the phone. You lost me on this one. I can't see why this is so impressive. > > The landing party was wearing their weapons belts. The extra packs are > > included, just like on Tracy's belt. Kirk says "Tracy's extra belt packs" > > when Spock hands him the evidence. > Spock says "Tracey's reserve belt packs". But, we don't see those used by > the Enterprise crew, and when their phasers are confiscated by Tracey and > the Kohms, we don't see any reserve belt packs taken. Watch it again. The Coms come in and take equipment from the back of everyone's belt, their sidearm, and at least one communicator off of a table. > The TOS warp effect was moving stars, and we saw that. Wrong. The TOS warp effect is stars that look like they are passing the ship. I'm not talking about "treading space" star movement. The two are quite distinct. > > Nope. No evidence, especially in light of the above. > There is evidence, just circumstantial. Or, the Klingons could have dropped > to impulse, turned, accelerated, and fired, but that would probably mean > impulse performance you'd want to argue against. That's what I ALWAYS said, actually. That's the most logical way to interpret the scene. They blaze in at warp 7, drop to impulse, fire a volley, and zip back to warp before the Enterprise has any kind of chance to respond. Its almost a "Picard Maneuver" really. > >Another strange thing, according to the external shot of the > > Enterprise, it WAS clearly at warp for at least that one turn. > Impossible, given the plot. They had not repaired the engines. The visual evidence doesn't lie. It may have stuttered into warp for just that turn. > > Uh yes, by Spock trying to destroy the asteroid.... > No, they raced to the asteroid at warp nine. Kirk's disappearance made them > late. That's why Scotty was moaning, and why he later said that Spock > couldn't have any more warp nine. Spock crippled the ship by attempting to tie in warp power to the phasers. http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 05:09:14 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <_R9V8.125387$Ca2.6736830@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:uia39bpdr496fa@corp.supernews.com... > > "DarkStar" wrote > > > "Wayne Poe" wrote > > > > Nope. Then everything would be a different color in "real space". The > > > logical conclusion is, the "prototype" plama cannon from BoT can't be > used > > > on a Romulan ship that want to enjoy warp power. > > > Don't get me wrong, I think they were less power-hungry than the BoT Bird > of > > Prey used, but we did see them firing the same sort of plasma weapon, not > a > > photon torpedo. > > But it can't be THE plasma weapon from "Balance of Terror". Just take a look > at the resulting hit once it reaches the Enterprise in "The Deadly Years". > It looks nothing like it did in "Balance of Terror". We never saw the BoT weapon, except on the viewscreen, so how would you know? > > > This was the Roman Proconsul'squote, BASED on what he was told. And > again, > > > no time frame given, and "lay waste" to 20th century civilization > > > shouldn't be much of a challenge. > > > Yes, but based on the "Taste of Armageddon" quote, it couldn't take _too_ > > long. If someone says that they are going to do A at time B, you don't > > expect them to still be working on A three years later. > > Heh, try telling that to rabid VS Trekkies every single time BDZ is brought > up. hehe > > No, no, no. The original thing that was posted had the stun thing, and > > _also_ mentioned how Scotty found the fireplug on a street in five > seconds. > > The fireplug thing happened earlier. That was the separate example. > > Calling down orbital support fire isn't impressive, it is expected. > > Finding a vaguely described yellow fireplug on an unknown world is pretty > > cool, though. So is snatching people talking on the phone. > > You lost me on this one. I can't see why this is so impressive. Which? The fireplug or phone? > > > The landing party was wearing their weapons belts. The extra packs are > > > included, just like on Tracy's belt. Kirk says "Tracy's extra belt > packs" > > > when Spock hands him the evidence. > > > Spock says "Tracey's reserve belt packs". But, we don't see those used by > > the Enterprise crew, and when their phasers are confiscated by Tracey and > > the Kohms, we don't see any reserve belt packs taken. > > Watch it again. The Coms come in and take equipment from the back of > everyone's belt, their sidearm, and at least one communicator off of a > table. I have just watched each Kohm take each person's equipment. Here is the breakdown: 1. Kirk. One Kohm reaches for Kirk's phaser from his hip and his communicator from his back. No other movements or equipment taken. 2. Spock. He seemed to lack a communicator for some reason, presumably it was the device on the table. The Kohm took the phaser from his hip and fiddled with the table equipment or communicator. No other movements or equipment taken. 3. McCoy. The doctor was partially obscured, but you can see the forearm of the Kohm and the movements. A phaser is taken from the hip. No other movements or equipment taken. No other equipment or objects were touched or tampered with by the Kohms. The Enterprise crew was not carrying reserve belt packs. > > The TOS warp effect was moving stars, and we saw that. > > Wrong. The TOS warp effect is stars that look like they are passing the > ship. I'm not talking about "treading space" star movement. The two are > quite distinct. No, they were used interchangeably. > > > Nope. No evidence, especially in light of the above. > > > There is evidence, just circumstantial. Or, the Klingons could have > dropped > > to impulse, turned, accelerated, and fired, but that would probably mean > > impulse performance you'd want to argue against. > > That's what I ALWAYS said, actually. That's the most logical way to > interpret the scene. They blaze in at warp 7, drop to impulse, fire a > volley, and zip back to warp before the Enterprise has any kind of chance to > respond. Its almost a "Picard Maneuver" really. > Except for the fact that there is no evidence they dropped to impulse from "greater than warp seven", or that they dropped to impulse after the warp strafe. > > >Another strange thing, according to the external shot of the > > > Enterprise, it WAS clearly at warp for at least that one turn. > > > Impossible, given the plot. They had not repaired the engines. > > The visual evidence doesn't lie. It may have stuttered into warp for just > that turn. So Federation ships can go FTL with impulse only? Wow, didn't know that. :) > > > Uh yes, by Spock trying to destroy the asteroid.... > > > No, they raced to the asteroid at warp nine. Kirk's disappearance made > them > > late. That's why Scotty was moaning, and why he later said that Spock > > couldn't have any more warp nine. > > Spock crippled the ship by attempting to tie in warp power to the phasers. No, he first damaged the ship by racing at warp nine to the asteroid deflection point. He even explained the need to get there to McCoy. Before they left the planet, though, they searched for Kirk with additional parties, which took time, so they were late. After racing to the deflection point, they immediately tried to use the deflectors to change the asteroid's course, but they couldn't because of the engine strain. That was when Spock got the bright idea to crack the asteroid (maybe hoping to make it more manageable), but the attempt ended up killing the engines anyway. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:49:17 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote > "Wayne Poe" wrote > > But it can't be THE plasma weapon from "Balance of Terror". Just take a > > look at the resulting hit once it reaches the Enterprise in "The Deadly Years". > > It looks nothing like it did in "Balance of Terror". > We never saw the BoT weapon, except on the viewscreen, so how would you > know? Because we know from all past episodes that there is no vast difference between what is seen onscreen vs what is "outside", except for THIS example. We see what a full power shot looks like up close, thanks to the video feed from outpost 4. We see what a dissipated shot looks like up close on the Enterprise viewscreen. NONE of these look even remotely similar to what we see in "The Deadly Years". The only logical conclusion is: they are not the same weapon as the one on the prototype Romulan vessel from "Balance of Terror". > > You lost me on this one. I can't see why this is so impressive. > Which? The fireplug or phone? Both, really. I mean, they've plucked Kirk's atoms out of the heart of an antimatter explosion twice, in "The Doomsday Machine" and "Obsession". I'd say that's more impressive! > > Watch it again. The Coms come in and take equipment from the back of > > everyone's belt, their sidearm, and at least one communicator off of a > > table. > I have just watched each Kohm take each person's equipment. Here is the > breakdown: > > 1. Kirk. One Kohm reaches for Kirk's phaser from his hip and his > communicator from his back. No other movements or equipment taken. He takes the communicator, and he could have easily taken any spare packs as well in the same grab. > 2. Spock. He seemed to lack a communicator for some reason, presumably it > was the device on the table. The Kohm took the phaser from his hip and > fiddled with the table equipment or communicator. No other movements or > equipment taken. Wrong. Watch again. The third Com takes McCoy's phaser, then takes *something* from Spock's belt. There is a fourth Com standing behind McCoy, but doesn't do anything. Kirk and Spock may have been the only ones to carry spare packs (he being a Doctor, not a gunslinger). The Coms don't search the redshirt, for some reason. Also, no one is surprised Tracy is carrying "reserve belt packs" As if its...standard procedure. > 3. McCoy. The doctor was partially obscured, but you can see the forearm > of the Kohm and the movements. A phaser is taken from the hip. No other > movements or equipment taken. He took *something* from Spock. McCoy's communicator must have been the one on the table. Spock may have lost his when he and the redshirt were ambushed. > No other equipment or objects were touched or tampered with by the Kohms. > The Enterprise crew was not carrying reserve belt packs. We don't know that for certain. > > > The TOS warp effect was moving stars, and we saw that. > > Wrong. The TOS warp effect is stars that look like they are passing the > > ship. I'm not talking about "treading space" star movement. The two are > > quite distinct. > No, they were used interchangeably. Then you aren't watching the episode. > > > > Nope. No evidence, especially in light of the above. > > > There is evidence, just circumstantial. Or, the Klingons could have > > dropped > > > to impulse, turned, accelerated, and fired, but that would probably mean > > > impulse performance you'd want to argue against. > > That's what I ALWAYS said, actually. That's the most logical way to > > interpret the scene. They blaze in at warp 7, drop to impulse, fire a > > volley, and zip back to warp before the Enterprise has any kind of chance > to > > respond. Its almost a "Picard Maneuver" really. > Except for the fact that there is no evidence they dropped to impulse from > "greater than warp seven", or that they dropped to impulse after the warp > strafe. There is no warp strafe, and the evidence is clear that they dropped to impulse to fire due to no warp effect. > > > >Another strange thing, according to the external shot of the > > > > Enterprise, it WAS clearly at warp for at least that one turn. > > > Impossible, given the plot. They had not repaired the engines. > > The visual evidence doesn't lie. It may have stuttered into warp for just > > that turn. > So Federation ships can go FTL with impulse only? Wow, didn't know that. > :) Didn't say that. The ship could have stuttered into warp for just that turn. It makes no sense to say they can go FTL on impulse, does it? > > > > Uh yes, by Spock trying to destroy the asteroid.... > > > No, they raced to the asteroid at warp nine. Kirk's disappearance made > > > them late. That's why Scotty was moaning, and why he later said that Spock > > > couldn't have any more warp nine. > > Spock crippled the ship by attempting to tie in warp power to the phasers. > No, he first damaged the ship by racing at warp nine to the asteroid > deflection point. He even explained the need to get there to McCoy. > Before they left the planet, though, they searched for Kirk with additional > parties, which took time, so they were late. After racing to the deflection > point, they immediately tried to use the deflectors to change the asteroid's > course, but they couldn't because of the engine strain. That was when > Spock got the bright idea to crack the asteroid (maybe hoping to make it > more manageable), but the attempt ended up killing the engines anyway. Yes, that's exactly what I said. Spock crippled the ship by attempting to tie in warp power to the phasers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:44:10 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <_LeV8.281374$_j6.13864977@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:uiagbgosmfskb7@corp.supernews.com... > > "DarkStar" wrote > > > "Wayne Poe" wrote > > > > But it can't be THE plasma weapon from "Balance of Terror". Just take a > > > look at the resulting hit once it reaches the Enterprise in "The Deadly > Years". > > > It looks nothing like it did in "Balance of Terror". > > > We never saw the BoT weapon, except on the viewscreen, so how would you > > know? > > Because we know from all past episodes that there is no vast difference > between what is seen onscreen vs what is "outside", except for THIS example. > We see what a full power shot looks like up close, thanks to the video feed > from outpost 4. We see what a dissipated shot looks like up close on the > Enterprise viewscreen. NONE of these look even remotely similar to what we > see in "The Deadly Years". The only logical conclusion is: they are not the > same weapon as the one on the prototype Romulan vessel from "Balance of > Terror". Actually, no. Since what these looked like on the viewscreen was exactly the same as what has been seen before, the logical conclusion is that they look different from behind. :) > > > You lost me on this one. I can't see why this is so impressive. > > > Which? The fireplug or phone? > > Both, really. I mean, they've plucked Kirk's atoms out of the heart of an > antimatter explosion twice, in "The Doomsday Machine" and "Obsession". I'd > say that's more impressive! Yeah. But there's something cool about being able to track the phone call from orbit. That weak electronic signal carried by conducting wire in a maze of conducting wires, eventually reaching another phone. And all of it tracked by Scotty. Then again, maybe it is just the real-world application- {ring ring} "Terrorism Central, how may I direct your call?" "Osama, please." "One moment... ... hello?" "Osama?" "Yeah." {transporter sound} "Got him. He's in the transporter buffer." "Good. Computer, initiate holodeck program 'Muslim Hell One'." "Program complete, enter when ready." "Shit, man, is that the one with the thorn-cocked demons and fang-wombed hags bent on pleasuring themselves with whoever is in there?" "Yep, that's the one. Materialize him in the holodeck. Alert the clean-up crews not to worry about that room anymore. I think we'll have to burn it." > > > Watch it again. The Coms come in and take equipment from the back of > > > everyone's belt, their sidearm, and at least one communicator off of a > > > table. > > > I have just watched each Kohm take each person's equipment. Here is the > > breakdown: > > > > 1. Kirk. One Kohm reaches for Kirk's phaser from his hip and his > > communicator from his back. No other movements or equipment taken. > > He takes the communicator, and he could have easily taken any spare packs as > well in the same grab. No belt packs were visible, and no additional moves with fingers or hands were seen. We would have seen Kohm1 grab them, if reserve belt packs were normally carried where Spock seemed to have Tracey's (behind him, on his back). The Kohm grabbed the communicator, then the phaser, and that was it. He was using one hand for both, and I see no way he could have fit a communicator, phaser, _and_ one or two phaser handles. He put the communicator in his front coat pocket, but held the phaser. > > 2. Spock. He seemed to lack a communicator for some reason, presumably > it > > was the device on the table. The Kohm took the phaser from his hip and > > fiddled with the table equipment or communicator. No other movements or > > equipment taken. > > Wrong. Watch again. The third Com takes McCoy's phaser, then takes > *something* from Spock's belt. There is a fourth Com standing behind McCoy, > but doesn't do anything. Kirk and Spock may have been the only ones to carry > spare packs (he being a Doctor, not a gunslinger). I like your numbering of the Kohms. Makes life easier. Kohm2 grabbed Spock's phaser and someone's communicator off the table. I have watched the entire sequence, beginning at the point Spock and Galloway enter, and have not seen Spock's communicator, so apparently it was the doctor's on the table. Nimoy was thin, and his uniform snug, so I doubt I missed a whole communicator. Kohm3 did lift Spock's shirt after taking McCoy's phaser, but I've watched frame by frame and don't see anything new in or around his hands. He lifts it at the back, then appears to pull it up and around to Spock's left hip, as if he is searching for something (communicator, maybe?), but I don't see him find anything. I thought I did for a second in one frame, but that was just his (Kohm3's) belt, which is black and sticks out in front of him. (insert joke) Kohm3 grabbed McCoy's phaser with his left hand, then transferred the phaser to his right hand (holding phaser and sword). He then lifted Spock's shirt, and transferred the phaser back to his left hand. If he had found something, I would expect him to have put it in his pocket like Kohm1. >The Coms don't search the > redshirt, for some reason. Uh, okay. He was dead. Very dead. Vaporized dead. What were they supposed to search? > Also, no one is surprised Tracy is carrying "reserve belt packs" As if > its...standard procedure. It doesn't have to be standard procedure for them not to be surprised by it. It could be a common option that they never exercise. > > 3. McCoy. The doctor was partially obscured, but you can see the > forearm > > of the Kohm and the movements. A phaser is taken from the hip. No other > > movements or equipment taken. > > He took *something* from Spock. McCoy's communicator must have been the one > on the table. Spock may have lost his when he and the redshirt were > ambushed. He didn't take any object from Spock, though he did search him. I agree that Spock's communicator was missing somehow. > > No other equipment or objects were touched or tampered with by the Kohms. > > The Enterprise crew was not carrying reserve belt packs. > > We don't know that for certain. Yes, we do. The Enterprise crew was stripped of all objects they were carrying or in proximity to that had significance. Kohm2 even knew to grab the communicator on the table. No one appeared to grab Tracey's empty power packs, but that doesn't matter since we don't know where they went (they were in Kirk's right hand, then all the sudden his right hand had the communicator in it (right before Tracey came in), so I don't know where they went. If the Enterprise crew was carrying reserve belt packs, this would be the first observed time. We have never seen them any other time they had their weapons taken, utility belts visible, or in motion. Also, you are arguing that Spock, the pacifist, somehow had reserve belt packs hidden on his person while Kirk obviously didn't, even though Kirk was the one wearing a utility belt. It is likely that any reserve belt packs the Enterprise crew was carrying were on Galloway, but he was vaporized along with whatever he was carrying, including his phaser. Tracey was dumb. > > > > The TOS warp effect was moving stars, and we saw that. > > > > Wrong. The TOS warp effect is stars that look like they are passing the > > > ship. I'm not talking about "treading space" star movement. The two are > > > quite distinct. > > > No, they were used interchangeably. > > Then you aren't watching the episode. Yeah, I am. All the other ones, too. Even the first pilot uses them interchangeably. The opening scene has that cool zoom in to the bridge, and the stars are rushing by. The viewscreen shows your "treading space" stars going slow. There's always the shot of the Enterprise zipping by with the stars not in motion at all. That is used for warp sometimes. > > > > > > Nope. No evidence, especially in light of the above. > > > > > There is evidence, just circumstantial. Or, the Klingons could have > > > dropped > > > > to impulse, turned, accelerated, and fired, but that would probably > mean > > > > impulse performance you'd want to argue against. > > > > That's what I ALWAYS said, actually. That's the most logical way to > > > interpret the scene. They blaze in at warp 7, drop to impulse, fire a > > > volley, and zip back to warp before the Enterprise has any kind of > chance > > to > > > respond. Its almost a "Picard Maneuver" really. > > > Except for the fact that there is no evidence they dropped to impulse from > > "greater than warp seven", or that they dropped to impulse after the warp > > strafe. > > There is no warp strafe, and the evidence is clear that they dropped to > impulse to fire due to no warp effect. There's no such thing as a TOS warp effect, so how do you expect to see it? The thing you say is a warp effect was used in this very episode for impulse, and the thing you call "treading space" (I guess you mean impulse) is used for warp drive. You are making a claim about the Klingon warp strafing based on two things. The first is your claim that there is consistency in the use of the starfield motion to show warp speeds. There is no consistency in the starfield motion, so your claim is based on nothing. In Attack of the Clones, the refugee transport Padme and Anakin ride to Naboo is seen in space. There is no hyperdrive effect. Are we supposed to think that Naboo is a few lightdays from Coruscant? No, because that is silly... we know they must have used hyperdrive. We can simply say that they were in hyperspace for most of the trip, just not that part. That's reasoning. In this episode, the Klingons go in and out of warp. They are stated to be at warp. There is no warp effect, so you claim. Are we supposed to think that they magically dropped out of warp? No, because that is silly... you claim they must have dropped out of warp, but unlike the Naboo trip, there is no need for an assumption of different speed. The M-5 episode also shows warp strafing, so we know it can be done. That's the other thing your claim about Klingon warp strafing is based on. You don't think warp strafing is possible, even though we have seen it. > > > > >Another strange thing, according to the external shot of the > > > > > Enterprise, it WAS clearly at warp for at least that one turn. > > > > > Impossible, given the plot. They had not repaired the engines. > > > > The visual evidence doesn't lie. It may have stuttered into warp for > just > > > that turn. > > > So Federation ships can go FTL with impulse only? Wow, didn't know that. > > :) > > Didn't say that. The ship could have stuttered into warp for just that turn. > It makes no sense to say they can go FTL on impulse, does it? All they had was impulse. Going to warp was not possible, and Kirk never ordered it. If they had been in possession of power from the warp core, they could also (as they said in the episode, and then did) have armed torpedoes and fed warp power to the shields. Face it, the starfield is not consistent, so it cannot be used as a basis for argument. You said the visual evidence doesn't lie. You're right, it doesn't, because it says nothing. > > > > > Uh yes, by Spock trying to destroy the asteroid.... > > > > > No, they raced to the asteroid at warp nine. Kirk's disappearance > made > > > > them late. That's why Scotty was moaning, and why he later said that > Spock > > > > couldn't have any more warp nine. > > > > Spock crippled the ship by attempting to tie in warp power to the > phasers. > > > No, he first damaged the ship by racing at warp nine to the asteroid > > deflection point. He even explained the need to get there to McCoy. > > Before they left the planet, though, they searched for Kirk with > additional > > parties, which took time, so they were late. After racing to the > deflection > > point, they immediately tried to use the deflectors to change the > asteroid's > > course, but they couldn't because of the engine strain. That was when > > Spock got the bright idea to crack the asteroid (maybe hoping to make it > > more manageable), but the attempt ended up killing the engines anyway. > > Yes, that's exactly what I said. Spock crippled the ship by attempting to > tie in warp power to the phasers. Warp (core) power is always tied in to the phasers. That's why they couldn't fire anything when the Klingons were warp strafing them. Your words were "Spock cripples the Enterprise in the attempt, to stop a REAL asteroid in "The Paradise Syndrome" and doesn't even slow it down." I told you that the "engines were damaged in Paradise Syndrome". You said the "Uh yes" above, claiming that the phaser shots crippled the engines. In other words, you were implying that Spock took a perfectly good Enterprise and crippled it by trying to destroy an asteroid, and so therefore they could not have destroyed Yonada (which was what was being discussed). You're missing the whole point of the fact that Spock obviously believed they could do it, but then he couldn't because the engines, which had already suffered damage from all the abuse, finally gave out. Or, to put it more simply, you suggested that full phasers plus big asteroid equals crippled ship, based on the episode. That's wrong, because it was actually warp nine plus deflector beam plus full phasers plus big asteroid that equalled crippled ship. make sense now? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:27:28 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote > "Wayne Poe" wrote > Actually, no. Since what these looked like on the viewscreen was exactly > the same as what has been seen before, the logical conclusion is that they > look different from behind. :) Sorry, not buying it. ;) > No belt packs were visible, and no additional moves with fingers or hands > were seen. We would have seen Kohm1 grab them, if reserve belt packs were > normally carried where Spock seemed to have Tracey's (behind him, on his > back). The Kohm grabbed the communicator, then the phaser, and that was it. > He was using one hand for both, and I see no way he could have fit a > communicator, phaser, _and_ one or two phaser handles. He put the > communicator in his front coat pocket, but held the phaser. Ok, I'll concede this one, since we see Kirk's shirt ride up in other scenes of the episode. But: > I like your numbering of the Kohms. Makes life easier. > Kohm2 grabbed Spock's phaser and someone's communicator off the table. I > have watched the entire sequence, beginning at the point Spock and Galloway > enter, and have not seen Spock's communicator, so apparently it was the > doctor's on the table. Nimoy was thin, and his uniform snug, so I doubt I > missed a whole communicator. Watch again. Spock is carrying the communicator. Com 3 takes it. > Kohm3 did lift Spock's shirt after taking McCoy's phaser, but I've watched > frame by frame and don't see anything new in or around his hands. He lifts > it at the back, then appears to pull it up and around to Spock's left hip, > as if he is searching for something (communicator, maybe?), but I don't see > him find anything. He did. Watch close before Spock's communicator is taken. You can see the bottom of it at the edge of Spock's shirt. Now this brings up another question. What ARE these "reserve packs"? I thought that the Type 2 phaser was just a booster for the Type 1 phaser, which clicks in the top? > > Also, no one is surprised Tracy is carrying "reserve belt packs" As if > > its...standard procedure. > It doesn't have to be standard procedure for them not to be surprised by it. > It could be a common option that they never exercise. You have a very funny tendency for restating everyone's statement. > > > > > The TOS warp effect was moving stars, and we saw that. > > > > > > Wrong. The TOS warp effect is stars that look like they are passing > the > > > > ship. I'm not talking about "treading space" star movement. The two > are > > > > quite distinct. > > > > > No, they were used interchangeably. > > > > Then you aren't watching the episode. > Yeah, I am. All the other ones, too. Even the first pilot uses them > interchangeably. The opening scene has that cool zoom in to the bridge, > and the stars are rushing by. The viewscreen shows your "treading space" > stars going slow. There's always the shot of the Enterprise zipping by with > the stars not in motion at all. That is used for warp sometimes. Let's talk about "Elann of Troyus", instead of vague references to other episodes first, shall we? In "Elann of Troyus", the two effects are clearly distinct. Except for one scene of the Enterprise moving off to the left. The TOS warp effect is a well established phenomenon. Obviously, you ren't going to see stars pass right by the hull from the VIEWSCREEN. > > There is no warp strafe, and the evidence is clear that they dropped to > > impulse to fire due to no warp effect. > There's no such thing as a TOS warp effect, so how do you expect to see it? Yes, there is. See above, and previous posts to this thread. > The thing you say is a warp effect was used in this very episode for > impulse, In one scene, which we have to logically conclude that the Enterprise slipped into warp for a second. > and the thing you call "treading space" (I guess you mean impulse) > is used for warp drive. No, that's when the Klingon is at impulse, since the exact same effect is used for the rest of the Enterprise scenes. > You are making a claim about the Klingon warp strafing based on two things. > The first is your claim that there is consistency in the use of the > starfield motion to show warp speeds. There is no consistency in the > starfield motion, so your claim is based on nothing. Wrong. The consistency is there, except for one scene. Your claims are quashed by the evidence of the majority of effects in that episode. > In Attack of the Clones, the refugee transport Padme and Anakin ride to > Naboo is seen in space. There is no hyperdrive effect. Are we supposed > to think that Naboo is a few lightdays from Coruscant? No, because that is > silly... we know they must have used hyperdrive. We can simply say that > they were in hyperspace for most of the trip, just not that part. That's > reasoning. Extreme false analogy. Nothing is said about hyperspace not working, nor are we along for the whole ride as we are for the whole Enterprise/Klingon engagement in "Elann of Troyus". > In this episode, the Klingons go in and out of warp. They are stated to be > at warp. Except for those scenes Sulu calls out their range, and of course no TOS warp effect when they fire. > There is no warp effect, so you claim. Yes there is. > Are we supposed to think > that they magically dropped out of warp? No, because that is silly... Right, since they have never needed "magic" before to drop out of warp. > you > claim they must have dropped out of warp, Due to the evidence provided by no TOS warp effect when they fire. > but unlike the Naboo trip, there > is no need for an assumption of different speed. Extreme false analogy. Nothing is said about hyperspace not working, nor are we along for the whole ride as we are for the whole Enterprise/Klingon engagement in "Elann of Troyus". > The M-5 episode also shows warp strafing, so we know it can be done. No it doesn't. Don't bring up the ore freighter; nothing is said about it be ing at impulse. And a sublight load of ore won't help Earth or an Earth colony at all. Don't bring up the Fleet, as the TOS warp effect proves they are at warp. > That's the other thing your claim about Klingon warp strafing is based on. > You don't think warp strafing is possible, even though we have seen it. Proof? > All they had was impulse. Going to warp was not possible, and Kirk never > ordered it. Maybe not, but the visual evidence doesn't lie. > If they had been in possession of power from the warp core, > they could also (as they said in the episode, and then did) have armed > torpedoes and fed warp power to the shields. Not if it just worked for a second before Scott fixed the problem. > Face it, the starfield is not consistent, In just one scene. > > Yes, that's exactly what I said. Spock crippled the ship by attempting to > > tie in warp power to the phasers. > Warp (core) power is always tied in to the phasers. That's why they > couldn't fire anything when the Klingons were warp strafing them. There were no Klingons in that episode. > Your words were "Spock cripples the Enterprise in the attempt, to stop a > REAL asteroid in "The Paradise Syndrome" and doesn't even slow it down." I > told you that the "engines were damaged in Paradise Syndrome". You said > the "Uh yes" above, claiming that the phaser shots crippled the engines. > In other words, you were implying that Spock took a perfectly good > Enterprise and crippled it by trying to destroy an asteroid, Which is what happened. > and so > therefore they could not have destroyed Yonada (which was what was being > discussed). Yup. You're missing the whole point of the fact that Spock obviously > believed they could do it, but then he couldn't because the engines, which > had already suffered damage from all the abuse, finally gave out. Nope. Spock damaged the engines by trying to split the asteroisd. The Enterprise couldn't do it, and it was crippled. > Or, to > put it more simply, you suggested that full phasers plus big asteroid equals > crippled ship, based on the episode. Yup. > That's wrong, because it was actually > warp nine plus deflector beam plus full phasers plus big asteroid that > equalled crippled ship. And your proof is? (Quotes, please.) > make sense now? It did the first time I presented it. http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 10:03:31 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:uicvu8bsmpds79@corp.supernews.com... > > "DarkStar" wrote > > > "Wayne Poe" wrote > > > Actually, no. Since what these looked like on the viewscreen was exactly > > the same as what has been seen before, the logical conclusion is that they > > look different from behind. :) > > Sorry, not buying it. ;) Wasn't for sale. It's just there on the screen. > > > No belt packs were visible, and no additional moves with fingers or hands > > were seen. We would have seen Kohm1 grab them, if reserve belt packs were > > normally carried where Spock seemed to have Tracey's (behind him, on his > > back). The Kohm grabbed the communicator, then the phaser, and that was > it. > > He was using one hand for both, and I see no way he could have fit a > > communicator, phaser, _and_ one or two phaser handles. He put the > > communicator in his front coat pocket, but held the phaser. > > Ok, I'll concede this one, since we see Kirk's shirt ride up in other scenes > of the episode. But: > > > I like your numbering of the Kohms. Makes life easier. > > > Kohm2 grabbed Spock's phaser and someone's communicator off the table. I > > have watched the entire sequence, beginning at the point Spock and > Galloway > > enter, and have not seen Spock's communicator, so apparently it was the > > doctor's on the table. Nimoy was thin, and his uniform snug, so I doubt I > > missed a whole communicator. > > Watch again. Spock is carrying the communicator. Com 3 takes it. ???? What is this you're watching, the "Omega Glory" Special Edition? > > Kohm3 did lift Spock's shirt after taking McCoy's phaser, but I've watched > > frame by frame and don't see anything new in or around his hands. He > lifts > > it at the back, then appears to pull it up and around to Spock's left hip, > > as if he is searching for something (communicator, maybe?), but I don't > see > > him find anything. > > He did. Watch close before Spock's communicator is taken. You can see the > bottom of it at the edge of Spock's shirt. No, you can't. I've watched it several times. A communicator is a pretty fat piece of equipment on the bottom, and Nimoy is a thin guy. His shirt isn't getting puffed out by it at any time, unlike Kirk's communicator which is almost tearing the velour. > Now this brings up another question. What ARE these "reserve packs"? I > thought that the Type 2 phaser was just a booster for the Type 1 phaser, > which clicks in the top? The reserve packs are the handles of the Phaser Two, the source of the energy they boost Phaser One with. Actually, I don't know if pulling the trigger on Phaser Two actually makes Phaser One fire. I doubt it, unless Phaser Two can power Phaser One. > > > Also, no one is surprised Tracy is carrying "reserve belt packs" As if > > > its...standard procedure. > > > It doesn't have to be standard procedure for them not to be surprised by > it. > > It could be a common option that they never exercise. > > You have a very funny tendency for restating everyone's statement. I have a very funny tendency for restating everyone's statement? :) > > > > > > The TOS warp effect was moving stars, and we saw that. > > > > > > > > Wrong. The TOS warp effect is stars that look like they are passing > > the > > > > > ship. I'm not talking about "treading space" star movement. The two > > are > > > > > quite distinct. > > > > > > > No, they were used interchangeably. > > > > > > Then you aren't watching the episode. > > > Yeah, I am. All the other ones, too. Even the first pilot uses them > > interchangeably. The opening scene has that cool zoom in to the bridge, > > and the stars are rushing by. The viewscreen shows your "treading space" > > stars going slow. There's always the shot of the Enterprise zipping by > with > > the stars not in motion at all. That is used for warp sometimes. > > Let's talk about "Elann of Troyus", instead of vague references to other > episodes first, shall we? Why? The lack of a firm use of some sort of warp effect is relevant, and the fact that it isn't used firmly in any other episode is relevant evidence. Not only are the three apparent star speeds (fast, slow, stopped) not used in connection to anything firmly, but the shots are also sped up and slowed down, so there are actually several speeds. > In "Elann of Troyus", the two effects are clearly distinct. Except for one > scene of the Enterprise moving off to the left. The TOS warp effect is a > well established phenomenon. Obviously, you ren't going to see stars pass > right by the hull from the VIEWSCREEN. No, but you will see the same star effect, just like you see warp stars on the viewscreen in TNG. > > > There is no warp strafe, and the evidence is clear that they dropped to > > > impulse to fire due to no warp effect. > > > There's no such thing as a TOS warp effect, so how do you expect to see > it? > > Yes, there is. See above, and previous posts to this thread. No, there isn't. See above, and previous posts to this... damn, I'm doing it again huh? :) > > The thing you say is a warp effect was used in this very episode for > > impulse, > > In one scene, which we have to logically conclude that the Enterprise > slipped into warp for a second. Even though it would either have blown up the ship, or was impossible because they had no working dilithium. Right. A more logical idea is that those were objects in space. Asteroids, perhaps. It makes a lot more sense than your idea, which requires that Federation ships can induce a warp field with their impulse drives. > > and the thing you call "treading space" (I guess you mean impulse) > > is used for warp drive. > > No, that's when the Klingon is at impulse, since the exact same effect is > used for the rest of the Enterprise scenes. See below. You get what's coming to you. :) > > You are making a claim about the Klingon warp strafing based on two > things. > > The first is your claim that there is consistency in the use of the > > starfield motion to show warp speeds. There is no consistency in the > > starfield motion, so your claim is based on nothing. > > Wrong. The consistency is there, except for one scene. Your claims are > quashed by the evidence of the majority of effects in that episode. All right, you stubborn bastard, you've done it now. I can be stubborn too. Let's take a look at the majority of effects in this episode and see what claims are quashed. What follows is based off of the VHS commercial-free Star Trek tape. Time 00:00 is roughly when the episode actually starts, within a couple of seconds. I will try to name the shots used, since the TOS stock footage bin was heavily used and reused. I am not arguing anything because of the shots or cameras (I know that's disallowed), just naming them and pointing them out so you can know what I'm talking about. Conventions: If two effects shots are shown back to back, I will not give a time for them, instead grouping them both under one timeslot. If I give a time for it, that means at least one other shot (like a bridge scene) occurred between it and the shot before. 00:03 - Enterprise enters orbit in the standard rear shot. Stars not moving. 06:45 - Orbit shot. Stars not moving. 7:00ish - Kirk orders Sulu to proceed to the other planet in the system at "sublight point-zero-three-seven". That's 11,092 kps, if you're wondering. 11:17 - High forward shot of Enterprise, ship moving slowly relative to camera. Stars at moderate speed. (sensor ghost found, starts to move closer, but not quickly) 14:01 - Klingon ship on the viewscreen. This is the standard stationary-relative-to-the-camera shot of the Klingon ship. Moderate-speed stars. 14:10 - Same "stationary shot" used above, but with a few faster stars. (I think in the whole "stationary shot" sequence stock footage the first few seconds don't have many stars, then one or two zip past, but I don't remember ever seeing the whole thing.) 14:15 - Enterprise passes. Forward shot of the ship, camera below centerline. Fast stars. Then Klingon ship. This shot has moderate-speed stars, and the Klingon ship starts at the middle left of the screen and moves up and to the right, until only her right nacelle is visible. I call this the "high pass". Spock (on Klingons): "... pacing us, precisely matching our sublight speed." 14:40 - Enterprise passes from left to right, broadside shot. No moving stars. Klingons pass left to right, broadside shot. Stars moving quickly right to left! 20:27 - Enterprise passes, one of the below-centerline-toward-right-of-camera shots. Stars moving fast. Klingon moderate-star-speed (mod) "high pass" reuse. 22:07 - Enterprise passes, fast stars. Klingon mod "high pass" reuse. 32:15 - Sulu reports Klingons have changed course, headed for Enterprise at warp speed. - Beginning of 1st Pass - 32:30 - Klingon mod "high pass" shot is used on the viewscreen. 32:44 - Spock: "Their speed is better than warp six, Captain." 33:16 - Klingons on the viewscreen, but this shot looks like they overlaid the viewscreen on top of the mod "high pass", because the ship is moving the same but seems a little larger. Moderate speed stars, either way. 33:25 - Klingon "high pass" reuse on viewscreen, like we saw at 32:30. 33:46 - Sulu starts range callouts, saying 100,000km 33:52 - Klingon "high pass" reuse on viewscreen, first couple of seconds of that shot. 34:02 - Klingon "high pass" reuse on viewscreen. Next couple of seconds of that shot. 34:07 - Klingon "high pass" reuse on viewscreen. Last seconds of that shot, with nacelle flyby. Possible viewer overlay, as from 33:16, but mod-speed stars either way. 36:35 - Scotty reports the converter assembly fused. He's apparently fixed the bomb, but they still can't go to warp because they need dilithium crystals. Theirs look burned. 39:26 - Klingon "stationary shot" on viewscreen. Moderate speed stars. - 2nd pass begins and ends. We do not see the Klingons. - - 3rd pass begins - 40:47 - Klingon "high pass" on viewscreen. 40:50 - Spock on Klingon speed: "... greater than warp 7." 40:55 - Enterprise "wallow" pivot shot, from the right, focused on the saucer. Slow stars. 40:58 - Klingon fires. Short shot from in front, slow stars. - 4th pass begins - 42:42 - Klingons, "high pass" on viewer. First few seconds of shot. 42:50 - Same shot, a few more seconds. 42:53 - Enterprise turns to port. Camera behind ship. Extra-fast stars. Klingon fires. Front shot, slow stars. - 5th pass - 44:31 - Sulu: "He's starting his run" 44:33 - Klingon "high pass" on viewer. 44:44 - Enterprise gets warp power. Kirk: "Prepare for warp maneuvers." Still at sublight, though. 45:19 - Enterprise traveling. Reuse of 11:17, mod stars. Klingon "high pass" reuse. Reversed shot, so K passes right to left. First few seconds of shot. 45:49 - Klingon "high pass" reuse reversed, a few more seconds of shot. Enterprise, forward shot. Moderate to fast stars. 45:57 - Klingon "stationary shot", reversed. Moderate speed stars. Fires from nacelles. 46:10 - Enterprise now goes to warp two pivot. "wallow" shot sped up, moderate to fast stars. Klingon front shot, slow stars, firing. 46:22 - Enterprise fires torpedoes. Standard firing shot, from the lower right, looking up at the ship. Moderate star speed. Klingon "stationary shot" reversed on viewer. Moderate stars. Gets hit by torpedoes. - Klingons withdraw - 47:00 - Kirk: "Resume course for Troyius" 47:08 - Fast Enterprise pass, camera in front of ship. Fast stars. Cuts immediately to orbit entry shot, no moving stars. 48:44 - Enterprise in orbit. No moving stars. 49:28 - "Warp two," says Kirk. Standard departure shot, very slow stars. Analysis Rough star speed groupings: Not moving, slow, moderate, fast `Number of times "moderate" was used to show impulse: At least 9 `Number of times "moderate" was used to show warp: At least 6 (I left some out of the warp category where logic suggests the ship was still at warp, but you say it wasn't due to the effects. I counted as moderate-impulse the ones where Sulu was calling out range.) `Number of times "slow" was used to represent impulse: 1, the wallow shot `Number of times "slow" was used to represent warp: 1, warping out of orbit (I left the Klingon third pass out, since you think it is proof of impulse and I think it isn't, and wouldn't want either of us to beg the question) `Number of times we saw the Klingon ship with fast stars: One, and it occurred at low impulse. `Number of times "fast" was used to represent impulse: 6 or 7, including the one Klingon one above, and including the one you claim is the Enterprise going to warp with impulse engines. I didn't leave that one out. `Number of times "fast" was used to represent warp: 1, assuming the Enterprise warped to Troyius and didn't resume her original speed when she resumed original course. So, looking at the episode as a whole: Fast stars = Impulse, _maybe_ warp, but Impulse has the lead by several hundred percent. Moderate stars = Warp or Impulse, Impulse has the lead by 50% Slow stars = Warp or Impulse, 50-50 Well, hey, look at that. Sure looks consistent to me. Actually, looking at what equals what above, it looks like the slower stars usually represent faster speeds, percentage-wise. :) > > In Attack of the Clones, the refugee transport Padme and Anakin ride to > > Naboo is seen in space. There is no hyperdrive effect. Are we supposed > > to think that Naboo is a few lightdays from Coruscant? No, because that > is > > silly... we know they must have used hyperdrive. We can simply say that > > they were in hyperspace for most of the trip, just not that part. That's > > reasoning. > > Extreme false analogy. Nothing is said about hyperspace not working, nor are > we along for the whole ride as we are for the whole Enterprise/Klingon > engagement in "Elann of Troyus". I never said hyperspace didn't work. I'm saying we didn't see them in hyperspace, but it must have occurred. You're saying the Klingons must not have been at warp, so it must not have occurred. It wasn't a false analogy, just off-the-wall. > > > In this episode, the Klingons go in and out of warp. They are stated to > be > > at warp. > > Except for those scenes Sulu calls out their range, and of course no TOS > warp effect when they fire. There is no such thing as a dedicated TOS warp effect, as I have shown you above. > > There is no warp effect, so you claim. > > Yes there is. No there isn't. I've proven I'm a stubborn man, haven't I? :) > > The M-5 episode also shows warp strafing, so we know it can be done. > > No it doesn't. Don't bring up the ore freighter; nothing is said about it be > ing at impulse. It is a DY-class on automatic, said to be slow-moving. It can't possibly have warp drive. The freighter is smaller than the Enterprise, and we would see warp engines on it if it had them. The Aurora from "Way to Eden" had warp engines on it, just like every other Federation/Earth ship we have seen during TOS, so this one would, too. >And a sublight load of ore won't help Earth or an Earth > colony at all. Just because you don't see how doesn't mean it won't. It could have been an automated freighter running between an asteroid belt and a colony, or from within a system to outside it for rendezvous with warp freighters, or whatever. > Don't bring up the Fleet, as the TOS warp effect proves they are at warp. There is no such thing as a TOS warp effect. In fact, based on the percentages from Elaan, the stars, if fast, prove they were more likely to be at impulse. :) > > That's the other thing your claim about Klingon warp strafing is based on. > > You don't think warp strafing is possible, even though we have seen it. > > Proof? M-5 vs. Woden > > All they had was impulse. Going to warp was not possible, and Kirk never > > ordered it. > > Maybe not, but the visual evidence doesn't lie. You're right, it doesn't, because it says nothing at all. > > If they had been in possession of power from the warp core, > > they could also (as they said in the episode, and then did) have armed > > torpedoes and fed warp power to the shields. > > Not if it just worked for a second before Scott fixed the problem. That's crazy. How do you use a Starfleet warp core without dilithium? That goes against everything in Star Trek. > > Face it, the starfield is not consistent, > > In just one scene. hehe > > > Yes, that's exactly what I said. Spock crippled the ship by attempting > to > > > tie in warp power to the phasers. > > > Warp (core) power is always tied in to the phasers. That's why they > > couldn't fire anything when the Klingons were warp strafing them. > > There were no Klingons in that episode. Elaan of Troyius, short-attention-span-boy. > > Your words were "Spock cripples the Enterprise in the attempt, to stop a > > REAL asteroid in "The Paradise Syndrome" and doesn't even slow it down." > I > > told you that the "engines were damaged in Paradise Syndrome". You said > > the "Uh yes" above, claiming that the phaser shots crippled the engines. > > > In other words, you were implying that Spock took a perfectly good > > Enterprise and crippled it by trying to destroy an asteroid, > > Which is what happened. (sigh) > > Or, to > > put it more simply, you suggested that full phasers plus big asteroid > equals > > crippled ship, based on the episode. > > Yup. > > > That's wrong, because it was actually > > warp nine plus deflector beam plus full phasers plus big asteroid that > > equalled crippled ship. > > And your proof is? (Quotes, please.) Watch the episode. I dare you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 08:53:13 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" > > Watch again. Spock is carrying the communicator. Com 3 takes it. > > ???? What is this you're watching, the "Omega Glory" Special Edition? No, just watching the regular one correctly. > > He did. Watch close before Spock's communicator is taken. You can see the > > bottom of it at the edge of Spock's shirt. > No, you can't. I've watched it several times. Then youy haven't paid attention. > > Now this brings up another question. What ARE these "reserve packs"? I > > thought that the Type 2 phaser was just a booster for the Type 1 phaser, > > which clicks in the top? > The reserve packs are the handles of the Phaser Two, the source of the > energy they boost Phaser One with. Actually, I don't know if pulling the > trigger on Phaser Two actually makes Phaser One fire. I doubt it, unless > Phaser Two can power Phaser One. That's what it has usually be touted to be a booster for Phaser One. > > Let's talk about "Elann of Troyus", instead of vague references to other > > episodes first, shall we? > Why? The lack of a firm use of some sort of warp effect is relevant, and > the fact that it isn't used firmly in any other episode is relevant > evidence. Actually, it IS used in other episodes. But we are talking specifics here, instead of "I saw it in an episode or three' > Not only are the three apparent star speeds (fast, slow, stopped) > not used in connection to anything firmly, Yes it is, even in "Elann of Troyus" > but the shots are also sped up > and slowed down, so there are actually several speeds. Depending on the warp or impulse factor, obviously. > > In "Elann of Troyus", the two effects are clearly distinct. Except for one > > scene of the Enterprise moving off to the left. The TOS warp effect is a > > well established phenomenon. Obviously, you ren't going to see stars pass > > right by the hull from the VIEWSCREEN. > No, but you will see the same star effect, just like you see warp stars on > the viewscreen in TNG. We're talking about TOS. > > In one scene, which we have to logically conclude that the Enterprise > > slipped into warp for a second. > > Even though it would either have blown up the ship, or was impossible > because they had no working dilithium. Right. Hey, I didn't make it. The visual evidence doesn't lie. > A more logical idea is > that those were objects in space. Asteroids, perhaps. Ah, yes. Let's go for wild unsupported speculation, rather than accept what we see when the ship is at warp. Right. > It makes a lot > more sense than your idea, which requires that Federation ships can induce a > warp field with their impulse drives. Which is not my claim. Do try to keep up. > > Wrong. The consistency is there, except for one scene. Your claims are > > quashed by the evidence of the majority of effects in that episode. > > All right, you stubborn bastard, you've done it now. I can be stubborn too. > Let's take a look at the majority of effects in this episode and see what > claims are quashed. > 00:03 - Enterprise enters orbit in the standard rear shot. Stars not > moving. Static POV, right. > 06:45 - Orbit shot. Stars not moving. Static POV, right. > 7:00ish - Kirk orders Sulu to proceed to the other planet in the system at > "sublight point-zero-three-seven". That's 11,092 kps, if you're wondering. > 11:17 - High forward shot of Enterprise, ship moving slowly relative to > camera. Stars at moderate speed. Travelling POV, right. > (sensor ghost found, starts to move closer, but not quickly) > 14:01 - Klingon ship on the viewscreen. This is the standard > stationary-relative-to-the-camera shot of the Klingon ship. Moderate-speed > stars. Travelling POV, right. > 14:10 - Same "stationary shot" used above, but with a few faster stars. (I > think in the whole "stationary shot" sequence stock footage the first few > seconds don't have many stars, then one or two zip past, but I don't > remember ever seeing the whole thing.) This isn't going to work. If you are trying to prove something, use dialogue before or during the scenes you are talking about. I'm not about to sit here with a stopwatch. The scenes I talked about are exactly consistent when showing warp and impulse. Which you still haven't refuted. > > Extreme false analogy. Nothing is said about hyperspace not working, nor > > are we along for the whole ride as we are for the whole Enterprise/Klingon > > engagement in "Elann of Troyus". > I never said hyperspace didn't work. I'm saying we didn't see them in > hyperspace, but it must have occurred. Which is a false analogy to "Elann of Troyus" > > Except for those scenes Sulu calls out their range, and of course no TOS > > warp effect when they fire. > There is no such thing as a dedicated TOS warp effect, Yes there is. > No there isn't. Yes there is. > I've proven I'm a stubborn man, haven't I? :) Nope, just yet another delusional Trekkie. > > > The M-5 episode also shows warp strafing, so we know it can be done. > > No it doesn't. Don't bring up the ore freighter; nothing is said about it > > being at impulse. > It is a DY-class on automatic, said to be slow-moving. It can't possibly > have warp drive. Why not? Was that said in the episode? Nope. It was "slow moving", which could mean it was relegated to warp 1. Useful, if anyone wants that ore to get anywhere in one's lifetime. > The freighter is smaller than the Enterprise, and we would > see warp engines on it if it had them. The shuttlecraft is smaller than the Enterprise, and it has warp drive. > The Aurora from "Way to Eden" had > warp engines on it, just like every other Federation/Earth ship we have seen > during TOS, so this one would, too. Since it was modified, the warp engines may have been integrated into the original design. > >And a sublight load of ore won't help Earth or an Earth > > colony at all. > Just because you don't see how doesn't mean it won't. It could have been > an automated freighter running between an asteroid belt and a colony, or > from within a system to outside it for rendezvous with warp freighters, or > whatever. Proof? They were in deep space. I saw no planets nearby, and the war games would hardly be fought in regular spacelanes. > > Don't bring up the Fleet, as the TOS warp effect proves they are at warp. > There is no such thing as a TOS warp effect. Yes there is. > > > That's the other thing your claim about Klingon warp strafing is based > on. > > > You don't think warp strafing is possible, even though we have seen it. > > > > Proof? > > M-5 vs. Woden Wrong. See above. > > Maybe not, but the visual evidence doesn't lie. > > You're right, it doesn't, because it says nothing at all. No, but it proves when the Klingons weren't at warp; which is when they fired on the Enterprise. > > > If they had been in possession of power from the warp core, > > > they could also (as they said in the episode, and then did) have armed > > > torpedoes and fed warp power to the shields. > > Not if it just worked for a second before Scott fixed the problem. > That's crazy. How do you use a Starfleet warp core without dilithium? > That goes against everything in Star Trek. Must havebeen the residue, since it DID hit warp for at least a second. > > > Face it, the starfield is not consistent, > > In just one scene. > hehe Glad you agree. > > > > Yes, that's exactly what I said. Spock crippled the ship by attempting > > > > to tie in warp power to the phasers. > > > Warp (core) power is always tied in to the phasers. That's why they > > > couldn't fire anything when the Klingons were warp strafing them. > > There were no Klingons in that episode. > Elaan of Troyius, short-attention-span-boy. There were none in "The Paradise Syndrome", scatter-shot boy. > > > Your words were "Spock cripples the Enterprise in the attempt, to stop a > > > REAL asteroid in "The Paradise Syndrome" and doesn't even slow it down." > > > I told you that the "engines were damaged in Paradise Syndrome". You > > > said the "Uh yes" above, claiming that the phaser shots crippled the engines. > > > In other words, you were implying that Spock took a perfectly good > > > Enterprise and crippled it by trying to destroy an asteroid, > > Which is what happened. > (sigh) There there. Defeat will be easier for you to take as it happens more and more. > > > Or, to > > > put it more simply, you suggested that full phasers plus big asteroid > > equals crippled ship, based on the episode. > > Yup. > > > That's wrong, because it was actually > > > warp nine plus deflector beam plus full phasers plus big asteroid that > > > equalled crippled ship. > > And your proof is? (Quotes, please.) > Watch the episode. I dare you. I did. Spock tried to split this asteroid with full phasers, something Trekkies say the Enterprise can do easily. Instead, he crippled the ship. Oops. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Boyd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 17:39:49 +0100 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- Wayne Poe wrote: >>> Watch again. Spock is carrying the communicator. Com 3 takes it. >> ???? What is this you're watching, the "Omega Glory" Special Edition? > No, just watching the regular one correctly. >>> He did. Watch close before Spock's communicator is taken. You can see the >>> bottom of it at the edge of Spock's shirt. >> No, you can't. I've watched it several times. > Then youy haven't paid attention. I think one of the two of you will need a screen cap to shut the other up. -- Jonathan Boyd MSN/AIM: EmperorBoyd | Web: http://www.jboyd.co.uk/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:16:40 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:uie4jmmqnpg597@corp.supernews.com... > > "DarkStar" > > > > Watch again. Spock is carrying the communicator. Com 3 takes it. > > > > ???? What is this you're watching, the "Omega Glory" Special Edition? > > No, just watching the regular one correctly. "correctly" doesn't involve dropping acid beforehand. > > > Now this brings up another question. What ARE these "reserve packs"? I > > > thought that the Type 2 phaser was just a booster for the Type 1 phaser, > > > which clicks in the top? > > > The reserve packs are the handles of the Phaser Two, the source of the > > energy they boost Phaser One with. Actually, I don't know if pulling the > > trigger on Phaser Two actually makes Phaser One fire. I doubt it, unless > > Phaser Two can power Phaser One. > > That's what it has usually be touted to be a booster for Phaser One. Huh? Whatever, Jar-jar. > > > Let's talk about "Elann of Troyus", instead of vague references to other > > > episodes first, shall we? > > > Why? The lack of a firm use of some sort of warp effect is relevant, and > > the fact that it isn't used firmly in any other episode is relevant > > evidence. > > Actually, it IS used in other episodes. But we are talking specifics here, > instead of "I saw it in an episode or three' Try the whole series. > > Not only are the three apparent star speeds (fast, slow, stopped) > > not used in connection to anything firmly, > > Yes it is, even in "Elann of Troyus" I'm going to be nice and assume you hadn't read my whole reply when you wrote that. > > > In one scene, which we have to logically conclude that the Enterprise > > > slipped into warp for a second. > > > > Even though it would either have blown up the ship, or was impossible > > because they had no working dilithium. Right. > > Hey, I didn't make it. The visual evidence doesn't lie. It can't lie, because it doesn't say anything. > > A more logical idea is > > that those were objects in space. Asteroids, perhaps. > > Ah, yes. Let's go for wild unsupported speculation, rather than accept what > we see when the ship is at warp. Right. You're the one with the "wild unsupported speculation" that the ship somehow magically went to warp for a second, even though the entire battle sequence until the warp two piviot is based on the fact that they couldn't go into warp. > > It makes a lot > > more sense than your idea, which requires that Federation ships can induce > a > > warp field with their impulse drives. > > Which is not my claim. Do try to keep up. They had no warp drive. The only other propulsion system is impulse. You claim they went to warp without warp drive. Figure it out. > > > Wrong. The consistency is there, except for one scene. Your claims are > > > quashed by the evidence of the majority of effects in that episode. > > > > All right, you stubborn bastard, you've done it now. I can be stubborn > too. > > Let's take a look at the majority of effects in this episode and see what > > claims are quashed. > > > 00:03 - Enterprise enters orbit in the standard rear shot. Stars not > > moving. > > Static POV, right. If standard orbit speed is similar to the speed of the shuttle in orbit (7.8kps), it wasn't static. > > 06:45 - Orbit shot. Stars not moving. > > Static POV, right. > > > 7:00ish - Kirk orders Sulu to proceed to the other planet in the system at > > "sublight point-zero-three-seven". That's 11,092 kps, if you're > wondering. > > 11:17 - High forward shot of Enterprise, ship moving slowly relative to > > camera. Stars at moderate speed. > > Travelling POV, right. At about 11,091kps > > > (sensor ghost found, starts to move closer, but not quickly) > > 14:01 - Klingon ship on the viewscreen. This is the standard > > stationary-relative-to-the-camera shot of the Klingon ship. > Moderate-speed > > stars. > > Travelling POV, right. From Enterprise, so 11,092kps. You realize that there isn't really going to be much difference between the shots just because of "travelling POV", right? The only big time we see a fast-moving POV is when the Enterprise was at warp shooting the Klingons. Moderate-speed stars, if you'll recall. > > > 14:10 - Same "stationary shot" used above, but with a few faster stars. > (I > > think in the whole "stationary shot" sequence stock footage the first few > > seconds don't have many stars, then one or two zip past, but I don't > > remember ever seeing the whole thing.) > > This isn't going to work. If you are trying to prove something, use dialogue > before or during the scenes you are talking about. I'm not about to sit here > with a stopwatch. It requires that you watch the episode. I know you don't want to, but do it anyway. >The scenes I talked about are exactly consistent when > showing warp and impulse. Which you still haven't refuted. No, you were right, this isn't going to work. There is no point proving something to someone who has abandoned his senses, especially when he's a whiny baby who snips all of it out because he can't be bothered to watch the episode. Concession accepted. > > > Except for those scenes Sulu calls out their range, and of course no TOS > > > warp effect when they fire. > > > There is no such thing as a dedicated TOS warp effect, > > Yes there is. You have conceeded that point. > > > > The M-5 episode also shows warp strafing, so we know it can be done. > > > > No it doesn't. Don't bring up the ore freighter; nothing is said about > it > > > being at impulse. > > > It is a DY-class on automatic, said to be slow-moving. It can't possibly > > have warp drive. > > Why not? Was that said in the episode? Nope. It was "slow moving", which > could mean it was relegated to warp 1. Useful, if anyone wants that ore to > get anywhere in one's lifetime. More warp drive with impulse engines? You like that idea, don't you? > > The freighter is smaller than the Enterprise, and we would > > see warp engines on it if it had them. > > The shuttlecraft is smaller than the Enterprise, and it has warp drive. I'm embarrassed for you right now. > > The Aurora from "Way to Eden" had > > warp engines on it, just like every other Federation/Earth ship we have > seen > > during TOS, so this one would, too. > > Since it was modified, the warp engines may have been integrated into the > original design. I don't think you can bring up the fact that it was a modified model of the Tholian ship. I can bring up the big warp nacelles on it, though. > > > Don't bring up the Fleet, as the TOS warp effect proves they are at > warp. > > > There is no such thing as a TOS warp effect. > > Yes there is. No, there isn't, and you're stupid. The acid has eaten your brain. > > > Maybe not, but the visual evidence doesn't lie. > > > > You're right, it doesn't, because it says nothing at all. > > No, but it proves when the Klingons weren't at warp; which is when they > fired on the Enterprise. You're really sad. You are taking the most inconsistent part of TOS and trying to prove something from it. Then, when I show you the inconsistency, you ignore it and whine about it. > > > > Face it, the starfield is not consistent, > > > > In just one scene. > > > hehe > > Glad you agree. > I was laughing at you, not with you. > > > > Your words were "Spock cripples the Enterprise in the attempt, to stop > a > > > > REAL asteroid in "The Paradise Syndrome" and doesn't even slow it > down." > > > > I told you that the "engines were damaged in Paradise Syndrome". You > > > > said the "Uh yes" above, claiming that the phaser shots crippled the > engines. > > > > > In other words, you were implying that Spock took a perfectly good > > > > Enterprise and crippled it by trying to destroy an asteroid, > > > > Which is what happened. > > > (sigh) > > There there. Defeat will be easier for you to take as it happens more and > more. This is me laughing at you again. I think you must just be lying, because I don't see how you could be this retarded and still operate a computer. > > > > Or, to > > > > put it more simply, you suggested that full phasers plus big asteroid > > > equals crippled ship, based on the episode. > > > > Yup. > > > > > That's wrong, because it was actually > > > > warp nine plus deflector beam plus full phasers plus big asteroid that > > > > equalled crippled ship. > > > > And your proof is? (Quotes, please.) > > > Watch the episode. I dare you. > > I did. Spock tried to split this asteroid with full phasers, something > Trekkies say the Enterprise can do easily. Instead, he crippled the ship. > Oops. Damaged ships are much easier to cripple. I suggest you change your tune before your next reply, or else I'll have to reply by e-mailing you a recording of me laughing my ass off at you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: majsvetlanna@aol.comspamkill (Maj Svetlanna) Date: 06 Jul 2002 19:51:24 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <20020706155124.16384.00003811@mb-fz.aol.com> -------- < snip > FTL speed with drives similiar to impulse is a canon fact. In the episode Spock's Brain, a ship used Ion Drives to exceed the speed of light; Impulse drives are a form of Ion drive, so there appears to be little to preclude them from exceeding the speed of light in the Star Trek universe. I would suspect that it is simply a matter of the fusion reactors for the ion engines being used to power the warp drives, and that the ship in Spock's Brain merely used highly efficient and advanced fusion reactors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 21:08:01 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Maj Svetlanna" wrote in message news:20020706155124.16384.00003811@mb-fz.aol.com... > > > < snip > > > FTL speed with drives similiar to impulse is a canon fact. In the episode > Spock's Brain, a ship used Ion Drives to exceed the speed of light; Impulse > drives are a form of Ion drive, so there appears to be little to preclude them > from exceeding the speed of light in the Star Trek universe. The ship was not exceeding lightspeed when we saw it at the start of the episode, which was when "ion propulsion" was referred to. It had at some point, since it took the Enterprise sixteen hours to get to the system at warp six, but we don't know enough about the drive system it used. > I would suspect that it is simply a matter of the fusion reactors for the ion > engines being used to power the warp drives, and that the ship in Spock's Brain > merely used highly efficient and advanced fusion reactors. "Ion propulsion" is what Spock and Scotty said. We have that now on one of our space probes, so him saying "they could teach us a thing or two" probably referred to the acceleration the thing was capable of at sublight. Also notice that they didn't use fusion. Scotty talked about the power source beneath the planet's surface as being enough to knock the planet out of orbit, and said it was either a huge nuclear pile or "ion power". Somehow, these people had some sort of ion reactor technology, whatever that means, and were able to use it for sublight propulsion, as well. Whether this sublight ion drive was used for superluminal speeds isn't known, because the ion trail could just as easily have come from reactor product venting. In short, there are too many unknowns for you to use that as an example. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 21:08:30 GMT Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "Maj Svetlanna" wrote in message news:20020706155124.16384.00003811@mb-fz.aol.com... Oh and I hate you for making me watch Spock's Brain. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 22:37:21 -0700 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" > I suggest you change your tune before your next reply, or else I'll have to > reply by e-mailing you a recording of me laughing my ass off at you. Don't worry. I won't waste any more time with you. "Oh! TOS warp doesn't exist anymore because I say it doesn't! "Oh! There IS no official Star Wars info, only canon!" If you were any more of a troll I'd have to pay toll to read your posts. http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 11:03:29 -0400 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: <3d285848_2@news.cybersurf.net> -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in message news:uifksj95tusd8b@corp.supernews.com... > > Don't worry. I won't waste any more time with you. > > "Oh! TOS warp doesn't exist anymore because I say it doesn't! > > "Oh! There IS no official Star Wars info, only canon!" > > If you were any more of a troll I'd have to pay toll to read your posts. > FUQ!!! -- -=Doomriser "There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages." -- Richard Lederer, "Anguished English" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Boyd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 23:23:43 +0100 Subject: Re: The myth of the Connie? Message-ID: -------- Doomriser wrote: > Just exploring this ludicrious sensation sweeping the SB baby nation. I'm > looking for examples of > > A. Supposed times where the E-nil is really powerful (i.e. taking > planetkiller beams, being hit by sound waves in outer space, being able to > wipe out all life on a [poisoned, pop. 15] planet etc...) > > B. Times where it is demonstrated that the E-nil is not so powerful > ('powerful' 97 MT explosion, fear of 20th century AAMs, etc... To be fair, the E-nil had been shaken about by a close encounter with a black hole and I don't think even had enough power to climb out of the atmosphere. The shields certainly weren't up. And the missiles were nuclear tipped. -- Jonathan Boyd MSN/AIM: EmperorBoyd | Web: http://www.jboyd.co.uk/