---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Guardian 2000" Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:44:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <9k1pi2$271oo$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de> -------- Kynes wrote in message ... > >STARFLEET COMPUTER SECURITY > >Several people have complained about my db entry on "Homefront," saying that >computer security was only compromised because the kiddies from the Academy had >high-level access codes. I give you this: > >http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-breakin.avi > > ODO: It's all yours. I suggest you hurry -- I doubt it'll take them very > long to discover that we're here. > > SISKO: I never knew it was so easy to break into classified Starfleet > files. > > ODO: Everything I know I learned from Quark. > >God damn, are the writers of this show secretly pro-SW debaters, or what? If Odo >had just been able to break in due to his prowess, there might be a case here -- >but Sisko comments that it's "easy" and Odo informs us that Quark (a >professional bartender) taught him how to do this! > >I repeat: an Imperial slicer would have a field day in the Federation. Ooooh . . . . whatever will we do when a "slicer" beams into Starfleet HQ and downloads our personnel files?!? >SPEED OF WARP > >http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-defiant.avi > > SISKO: Chief, how'd you get here? > > "O'BRIEN": You don't look so good. You've got a lot on your mind, I bet. > How's your father? > > SISKO: There's no way the Defiant could get here so soon. > >Although we don't know when the last time Sisko talked to the station was before >this, it probably would have been about a day before when he was first finding >out about what Leyton had done. Sisko says there's "no way" the Defiant could >get to Earth in this time. > >Of course, we don't know the distance but this does establish that even travel >Earth<->DS9 is a major undertaking. Yeah, it takes less than a week to get from the most remote Federation planet to Earth. I'd be surprised if it only took the Defiant a day to get from DS9, too. > > >ASTEROID FIELDS AND STARFLEET SHIPS > >http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-risk.avi > > LEYTON: Remember when we were on the Okanawa fighting the Zenkathi? That > > time when I wanted to take the ship into an asteroid belt to chase down > those three raiders? > > SISKO: And I said it was an unnecessary risk. > >Contrast with "Asteroids do not concern me; I want that ship. Not excuses." Vader's captains certainly didn't agree. >EASE OF DISRUPTING EARTH > >This just lends more credence to what we already know from yesterday; Earth is >very vulnerable, and with a moderate amount of intelligence, only a few people >are needed to subvert it. > >http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-four.avi > > "O'BRIEN": What if I were to tell you that there are only four -- on > this entire planet? Eh? Not counting Constable Odo, of course. Think of > it. Just _four_ of us. And look at the havoc we've wrought. > > SISKO: How do I know you're telling me the truth? > > "O'BRIEN": Oh, four is more than enough. > >Four changelings and Earth's in chaos. Speaks for itself, I think. Yes, it does. Changeling infiltrators kick ass. >Now a brief section on the Defiant before we get to the arms-control stuff. This >episode provides us with a short Defiant battle sequence and I can't believe it >hasn't been brought up in these groups before. It has. I've brought it up before. >In fact, it has. Andrew Muir, my mentor, brought it up all the time in debates >with TJ and Elim. Wayne used to have a clip of the scene on his site. Now I >bring it to you. > >http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-range.avi > > KIRA: The Lakota's targeting their weapons on our warp engines. >Check this clip out. It's 1.7MB but well worth it -- the Defiant and Lakota >sloooowlllly fly toward one another in a verrrry straight line and only when >they're less than 1km apart do they actually come "in range!" In fact, Worf is >so unconcerned about the possibility of their firing earlier that he doesn't >even raise shields until then! Though I'll have to ponder this further, you might be right. On those occasions where we've seen a starship target specific parts of an enemy vessel in order to disable them, the ships have been close, as far as I know. Examples come to mind, but I can't think of a particular counterexample at the moment. Examples include: "The Defector"[TNG]: The Warbird was shooting to disable, not destroy, as part of their deception. Range was only a few kilometers. "The Wounded"[TNG]: The Enterprise disabled the Cardassians warship. Range was only a few kilometers. "Workforce, Pt. I"[VOY]: The Doctor destroyed the engines of the rather Breen-esque alien ship. Range was perhaps a couple of kilometers. > >http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-speeds.avi > > [It's all visual] > >Anyone discussing the high battle speeds of ST ships may take a look at this... >the Defiant does a slow barrell roll as the Lakota slowly turns, then it does >another kind of half-roll and turns around for about 5 seconds, then drifts >slowly above the unmoving Lakota as the two exchange phaser fire. It takes the >Defiant at least 4 seconds to go the length of the Lakota. As I recall, one of the examples of the Defiant having regular beam-phasers comes from this battle sequence. Did you happen to notice that? >FEDERATION ARMS CONTROL >The implication here is a clear one. With a couple of guys with phaser rifles >standing around on streetcorners, Admiral Leyton was able to control an entire >planet. Why? "All those phasers," according to Joseph Sisko -- indicating that >the reason it was so easy was because Earth's citizens couldn't have arms >themselves, making a couple of dumbass ensigns more than enough. > >This shouldn't surprise anyone -- the Federation is, after all, a communist >dictatorship -- but it is more evidence to add to the pile. You're assuming they *couldn't* have phasers. Earth is often described as a 24th Century paradise . . . what would make you want a phaser in paradise? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Transcend" Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:37:22 +0000 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <20010729.163718.1685787366.17808@localhost.localdomain> -------- In article <9k1pi2$271oo$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de>, "Guardian 2000" wrote: > >>SPEED OF WARP >> >>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-defiant.avi >> >> SISKO: Chief, how'd you get here? >> >> "O'BRIEN": You don't look so good. You've got a lot on your mind, I >> bet. How's your father? >> >> SISKO: There's no way the Defiant could get here so soon. >> >>Although we don't know when the last time Sisko talked to the station >>was > before >>this, it probably would have been about a day before when he was first > finding >>out about what Leyton had done. Sisko says there's "no way" the Defiant > could >>get to Earth in this time. >> >>Of course, we don't know the distance but this does establish that even > travel >>Earth<->DS9 is a major undertaking. > > Yeah, it takes less than a week to get from the most remote Federation > planet to Earth. I'd be surprised if it only took the Defiant a day to > get from DS9, too. 1) DS9 is relatively close to the Klingon Empire. 2) DS9 is also relatively close to the Romulan Empire 3) Earth is right next door to both of these appairently Therefore Earth must be close to DS9. > > >>FEDERATION ARMS CONTROL > >>The implication here is a clear one. With a couple of guys with phaser > rifles >>standing around on streetcorners, Admiral Leyton was able to control an > entire >>planet. Why? "All those phasers," according to Joseph Sisko -- >>indicating > that >>the reason it was so easy was because Earth's citizens couldn't have >>arms themselves, making a couple of dumbass ensigns more than enough. >> >>This shouldn't surprise anyone -- the Federation is, after all, a >>communist dictatorship -- but it is more evidence to add to the pile. > > You're assuming they *couldn't* have phasers. Earth is often described > as a 24th Century paradise . . . what would make you want a phaser in > paradise? To make sure it stays a paradise? To defend yourself against criminals maybe? What about just plain psychopaths? What about the idea of an armed citizenry able to prevent the governemt from becomming a military dictatorship (which is what happened there after all)? Seems like plenty of reasons to own a weapon. -- When man took to his bed the Computer, there was great rejoicing, and great fear too, for their children were almost like gods. The mainbrains bestrode the galaxy at will, and changed its very face. The Silicon God, The Solid State Entity, Al Squared, Enth Generation - their names are many. And there were the Carked and Symbionts, whose daughters were the Neurosingers, Warrior-Poets, the Neurologicians and the Pilots of the Order of Mystic Mathematicians. --Horthy Hosthoh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:01:46 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: -------- On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:37:22 +0000, "Transcend" wrote: >To make sure it stays a paradise? To defend yourself against criminals >maybe? What about just plain psychopaths? What about the idea of an armed >citizenry able to prevent the governemt from becomming a military >dictatorship (which is what happened there after all)? Seems like plenty >of reasons to own a weapon. Cue the standard Trekkie rhetoric about how crime doesn't exist in the 24th century due to brainwashing techniques. -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DMZ" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 01:48:20 +0100 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <996454101.21519.0.nnrp-10.3e31960d@news.demon.co.uk> -------- "Kynes" wrote in message news:MKNkO8weBvOg4TH36vQ2yHJlIzMe@4ax.com... > On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:37:22 +0000, "Transcend" wrote: > > >To make sure it stays a paradise? To defend yourself against criminals > >maybe? What about just plain psychopaths? What about the idea of an armed > >citizenry able to prevent the governemt from becomming a military > >dictatorship (which is what happened there after all)? Seems like plenty > >of reasons to own a weapon. > > Cue the standard Trekkie rhetoric about how crime doesn't exist in the 24th > century due to brainwashing techniques. Remind me - are you for or against gun control, again? =) DMZ --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 08:42:00 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: -------- On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 01:48:20 +0100, "DMZ" wrote: >> >To make sure it stays a paradise? To defend yourself against criminals >> >maybe? What about just plain psychopaths? What about the idea of an armed >> >citizenry able to prevent the governemt from becomming a military >> >dictatorship (which is what happened there after all)? Seems like plenty >> >of reasons to own a weapon. >> >> Cue the standard Trekkie rhetoric about how crime doesn't exist in the 24th >> century due to brainwashing techniques. > >Remind me - are you for or against gun control, again? =) I'm not an extremist on the issue. While individuals like Ryan should obviously be prohibited from owning firearms, I can't see why licensed individuals shouldn't be allowed to have them. -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DMZ" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:05:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <996505547.8075.0.nnrp-10.3e31960d@news.demon.co.uk> -------- "Kynes" wrote in message news:Ah1lO7TqVYXvC0nGmUOa=Xy2UyDC@4ax.com... > On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 01:48:20 +0100, "DMZ" wrote: > > >> >To make sure it stays a paradise? To defend yourself against criminals > >> >maybe? What about just plain psychopaths? What about the idea of an armed > >> >citizenry able to prevent the governemt from becomming a military > >> >dictatorship (which is what happened there after all)? Seems like plenty > >> >of reasons to own a weapon. > >> > >> Cue the standard Trekkie rhetoric about how crime doesn't exist in the 24th > >> century due to brainwashing techniques. > > > >Remind me - are you for or against gun control, again? =) > > I'm not an extremist on the issue. While individuals like Ryan should obviously > be prohibited from owning firearms, I can't see why licensed individuals > shouldn't be allowed to have them. Nor am I, although it's hard not to automatically adopt an opposite extremist stance when confronted by the likes of Sheppard. However, I'd still say one overwhelming control should be if you really, really want a gun and have wank fantasies about it, you shouldn't be allowed within 100m of one. Presumably, you'd draw the line at civilians wandering the streets obviously and blatantly tooled up? DMZ --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 20:23:18 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: -------- On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:05:47 +0100, "DMZ" wrote: >> >Remind me - are you for or against gun control, again? =) >> >> I'm not an extremist on the issue. While individuals like Ryan should obviously >> be prohibited from owning firearms, I can't see why licensed individuals >> shouldn't be allowed to have them. > >Nor am I, although it's hard not to automatically adopt an opposite extremist >stance when confronted by the likes of Sheppard. No kidding. Arguing with him and Transcend has actually changed my mind on the issue in the opposite direction of them once I saw how dumb the arguments supporting their position were. > However, I'd still say one >overwhelming control should be if you really, really want a gun and have wank >fantasies about it, you shouldn't be allowed within 100m of one. Agreed. "Do you want a gun?" "Yes." "tough, seeya" >Presumably, you'd draw the line at civilians wandering the streets obviously and >blatantly tooled up? I don't think people need to have guns in church, no. :) [There is a real law that was passed in Texas by Bush, specifically allowing this. Get me offa this island] -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DMZ" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 21:29:15 +0100 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <996524955.17499.0.nnrp-10.3e31960d@news.demon.co.uk> -------- "Kynes" wrote in message news:oLFlOwPzHv61ZEvYAAdXFmhqAZm4@4ax.com... > I don't think people need to have guns in church, no. :) [There is a real law > that was passed in Texas by Bush, specifically allowing this. Get me offa this > island] Errrrrr... guns in church? Riiiight... Luckily, I'm not even on that particular continent. =) DMZ --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Durandal Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:14:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3B65CE27.FFFACC7F@mac.com> -------- Kynes wrote: > I don't think people need to have guns in church, no. :) [There is a real law > that was passed in Texas by Bush, specifically allowing this. Get me offa this > island] Didn't George Carlin say that he couldn't wait for guns in church? Something to the effect of some whacko going fuckin'-apeshit in a church and the media referring to him as a "disgruntled worshipper?" -- Damien Sorresso "The older you get, the more interested you are in Britney Spears." -John McCain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:18:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3B65CF2A.E1D9D113@daltonator.net> -------- Durandal wrote: > > Kynes wrote: > > > I don't think people need to have guns in church, no. :) [There is a real law > > that was passed in Texas by Bush, specifically allowing this. Get me offa this > > island] > > Didn't George Carlin say that he couldn't wait for guns in church? > Something to the effect of some whacko going fuckin'-apeshit in a church > and the media referring to him as a "disgruntled worshipper?" LOL, yeah. I think it's from "You Are All Diseased." He has another HBO special coming out soon, "It's Kind of Funny When A Lot Of People Die" or something to that effect. -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net The best defense against fanaticism is indifference. Of course, a flamethrower helps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Durandal Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:34:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3B65D2D9.9F07DDCF@mac.com> -------- Dalton wrote: > > Durandal wrote: > > > > Kynes wrote: > > > > > I don't think people need to have guns in church, no. :) [There is a real law > > > that was passed in Texas by Bush, specifically allowing this. Get me offa this > > > island] > > > > Didn't George Carlin say that he couldn't wait for guns in church? > > Something to the effect of some whacko going fuckin'-apeshit in a church > > and the media referring to him as a "disgruntled worshipper?" > > LOL, yeah. I think it's from "You Are All Diseased." > > He has another HBO special coming out soon, "It's Kind of Funny When A > Lot Of People Die" or something to that effect. SWEET! -- Damien Sorresso "The older you get, the more interested you are in Britney Spears." -John McCain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Strowbridge Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 01:41:11 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3B660C18.27C8DAE8@home.com> -------- Durandal wrote: > > Dalton wrote: > > > Didn't George Carlin say that he couldn't wait for guns in church? > > > Something to the effect of some whacko going fuckin'-apeshit in a church > > > and the media referring to him as a "disgruntled worshipper?" > > > > LOL, yeah. I think it's from "You Are All Diseased." > > > > He has another HBO special coming out soon, "It's Kind of Funny When A > > Lot Of People Die" or something to that effect. > > SWEET! I keep meaning to pick up his box set. Although I think his 'comedy' is a little weak. BUT when he talks about real life issues that piss him off, that's when he's at his best. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Durandal Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:02:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3B662DBE.4791951F@mac.com> -------- Strowbridge wrote: > > Durandal wrote: > > > > Dalton wrote: > > > > > Didn't George Carlin say that he couldn't wait for guns in church? > > > > Something to the effect of some whacko going fuckin'-apeshit in a church > > > > and the media referring to him as a "disgruntled worshipper?" > > > > > > LOL, yeah. I think it's from "You Are All Diseased." > > > > > > He has another HBO special coming out soon, "It's Kind of Funny When A > > > Lot Of People Die" or something to that effect. > > > > SWEET! > > I keep meaning to pick up his box set. Although I think his 'comedy' is > a little weak. BUT when he talks about real life issues that piss him > off, that's when he's at his best. Speak for yourself, the man is a god. ;P -- Damien Sorresso "The older you get, the more interested you are in Britney Spears." -John McCain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Strowbridge Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 07:44:52 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3B666152.C09E7068@home.com> -------- Durandal wrote: > > Strowbridge wrote: > > I keep meaning to pick up his box set. Although I think his 'comedy' is > > a little weak. BUT when he talks about real life issues that piss him > > off, that's when he's at his best. > > Speak for yourself, the man is a god. ;P I don't know. I think Carlin's Setup-Punchline joke telling is good, but not great and is certainly not his strong suit. He's a storyteller, well, more of a ranter. Like Dennis Miller. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:34:47 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: -------- On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 07:44:52 GMT, Strowbridge wrote: >> > I keep meaning to pick up his box set. Although I think his 'comedy' is >> > a little weak. BUT when he talks about real life issues that piss him >> > off, that's when he's at his best. >> >> Speak for yourself, the man is a god. ;P > >I don't know. I think Carlin's Setup-Punchline joke telling is good, but >not great and is certainly not his strong suit. He's a storyteller, >well, more of a ranter. Like Dennis Miller. I've always thought Carlin's unique contributions came in his observations about language. This is his most underappreciated material ('cause it's harder to identify with the mispronounciation of "forte" than it is with "Execute people via nuclear suppository") but the best. His obsession with "pre-" is one I share. I can't stand it. It's unnecessary. Language should get to the point. Right away. -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Durandal Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 13:19:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3B66F6AB.C59768DC@mac.com> -------- Kynes wrote: > > On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 07:44:52 GMT, Strowbridge wrote: > > >> > I keep meaning to pick up his box set. Although I think his 'comedy' is > >> > a little weak. BUT when he talks about real life issues that piss him > >> > off, that's when he's at his best. > >> > >> Speak for yourself, the man is a god. ;P > > > >I don't know. I think Carlin's Setup-Punchline joke telling is good, but > >not great and is certainly not his strong suit. He's a storyteller, > >well, more of a ranter. Like Dennis Miller. > > I've always thought Carlin's unique contributions came in his observations about > language. This is his most underappreciated material ('cause it's harder to > identify with the mispronounciation of "forte" than it is with "Execute people > via nuclear suppository") but the best. > > His obsession with "pre-" is one I share. I can't stand it. It's unnecessary. > Language should get to the point. Right away. The religious bits are also killer. Ever listen to any of his old stuff? Before he got really surely? -- Damien Sorresso "The older you get, the more interested you are in Britney Spears." -John McCain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 18:10:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3B672CBF.1FEF9FB9@daltonator.net> -------- Durandal wrote: > > Kynes wrote: > > > > On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 07:44:52 GMT, Strowbridge wrote: > > > > >> > I keep meaning to pick up his box set. Although I think his 'comedy' is > > >> > a little weak. BUT when he talks about real life issues that piss him > > >> > off, that's when he's at his best. > > >> > > >> Speak for yourself, the man is a god. ;P > > > > > >I don't know. I think Carlin's Setup-Punchline joke telling is good, but > > >not great and is certainly not his strong suit. He's a storyteller, > > >well, more of a ranter. Like Dennis Miller. > > > > I've always thought Carlin's unique contributions came in his observations about > > language. This is his most underappreciated material ('cause it's harder to > > identify with the mispronounciation of "forte" than it is with "Execute people > > via nuclear suppository") but the best. > > > > His obsession with "pre-" is one I share. I can't stand it. It's unnecessary. > > Language should get to the point. Right away. > > The religious bits are also killer. Ever listen to any of his old stuff? > Before he got really surely? Hippy Dippy Weatherman? -- Rob "Roby" Dalton http://daltonator.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Durandal Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:03:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3B675552.EB1DA8ED@mac.com> -------- Dalton wrote: > Hippy Dippy Weatherman? One of many. Teenage Masturbation, Heavy Mysteries Week, et cetera... -- Damien Sorresso "The older you get, the more interested you are in Britney Spears." -John McCain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Strowbridge Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 01:36:55 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3B660B18.C75C3396@home.com> -------- Kynes wrote: > > "DMZ" wrote: > > However, I'd still say one overwhelming control should be if you really, > > really want a gun and have wank fantasies about it, you shouldn't be > > allowed within 100m of one. > > Agreed. "Do you want a gun?" "Yes." "tough, seeya" I feel the same way about politics. C.S.Strowbridge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Guardian 2000" Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 20:06:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <9k2bhh$26iqo$2@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de> -------- Transcend wrote in message <20010729.163718.1685787366.17808@localhost.localdomain>... >In article <9k1pi2$271oo$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de>, "Guardian 2000" > wrote: > > >> >>>SPEED OF WARP >>> >>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-defiant.avi >>> >>> SISKO: Chief, how'd you get here? >>> >>> "O'BRIEN": You don't look so good. You've got a lot on your mind, I >>> bet. How's your father? >>> >>> SISKO: There's no way the Defiant could get here so soon. >>> >>>Although we don't know when the last time Sisko talked to the station >>>was >> before >>>this, it probably would have been about a day before when he was first >> finding >>>out about what Leyton had done. Sisko says there's "no way" the Defiant >> could >>>get to Earth in this time. >>> >>>Of course, we don't know the distance but this does establish that even >> travel >>>Earth<->DS9 is a major undertaking. >> >> Yeah, it takes less than a week to get from the most remote Federation >> planet to Earth. I'd be surprised if it only took the Defiant a day to >> get from DS9, too. > >1) DS9 is relatively close to the Klingon Empire. No, because the Klingon Fleet from "Way of the Warrior" had a very long journey, according to Martok. > >2) DS9 is also relatively close to the Romulan Empire Where does this come from? > >3) Earth is right next door to both of these appairently > >Therefore Earth must be close to DS9. More proof required. >> You're assuming they *couldn't* have phasers. Earth is often described >> as a 24th Century paradise . . . what would make you want a phaser in >> paradise? > >To make sure it stays a paradise? Then it wouldn't be paradise, would it? > To defend yourself against criminals maybe? Then it wouldn't be paradise, would it? > What about just plain psychopaths? Those are extremely rare in the 24th Century. > What about the idea of an armed >citizenry able to prevent the governemt from becomming a military >dictatorship (which is what happened there after all)? That is what almost happened, but didn't. >Seems like plenty of reasons to own a weapon. Not at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Transcend" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:29:48 +0000 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <20010730.062944.1601949781.19420@localhost.localdomain> -------- In article <9k2bhh$26iqo$2@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de>, "Guardian 2000" wrote: > Transcend wrote in message > <20010729.163718.1685787366.17808@localhost.localdomain>... >>In article <9k1pi2$271oo$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de>, "Guardian 2000" >> wrote: >> >> >>> >>>>SPEED OF WARP >>>> >>>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-defiant.avi >>>> >>>> SISKO: Chief, how'd you get here? >>>> >>>> "O'BRIEN": You don't look so good. You've got a lot on your mind, I >>>> bet. How's your father? >>>> >>>> SISKO: There's no way the Defiant could get here so soon. >>>> >>>>Although we don't know when the last time Sisko talked to the station >>>>was >>> before >>>>this, it probably would have been about a day before when he was first >>> finding >>>>out about what Leyton had done. Sisko says there's "no way" the >>>>Defiant >>> could >>>>get to Earth in this time. >>>> >>>>Of course, we don't know the distance but this does establish that >>>>even >>> travel >>>>Earth<->DS9 is a major undertaking. >>> >>> Yeah, it takes less than a week to get from the most remote Federation >>> planet to Earth. I'd be surprised if it only took the Defiant a day >>> to get from DS9, too. >> >>1) DS9 is relatively close to the Klingon Empire. > > No, because the Klingon Fleet from "Way of the Warrior" had a very long > journey, according to Martok. The invasion of Cardassia itself could not have happened if the Klingons were not a bordering Empire. Just because the fleet, which could have been at the far side of Klingon space for all we know, took a while to get there doesn't mean that DS9 isn't close to the Klingon Empire. > > >>2) DS9 is also relatively close to the Romulan Empire > > Where does this come from? The Romulans were able to travel to the area with relative ease, and were able to fight a war in nearby Cardassian/Dominion Space with relative ease. > > >>3) Earth is right next door to both of these appairently >> >>Therefore Earth must be close to DS9. > > More proof required. Earth being near Romulus is easy to prove, as they got in a war early on before the founding of the Federation. They were an early first contact and therefore must be rather close. The Klingons are a similar situation. If Earth is near both of those, and both of those are somewhat close to DS9 then Earth must be somewhat close to DS9. > > >>> You're assuming they *couldn't* have phasers. Earth is often >>> described as a 24th Century paradise . . . what would make you want a >>> phaser in paradise? >> >>To make sure it stays a paradise? > > Then it wouldn't be paradise, would it? Sure it would, just a paradise with weapons in existance. > >> To defend yourself against criminals maybe? > > Then it wouldn't be paradise, would it? There has never been any proof that all crime was wiped out on Earth. The fact that they have all of NZ as a a prison is pretty telling. Hey there's a reason right there, prison breakouts. > >> What about just plain psychopaths? > > Those are extremely rare in the 24th Century. Those are extremely rare today too, therefore your argument doesn't hold. Just because a threat is rare does not mean that you should not protect against it. > >> What about the idea of an armed >>citizenry able to prevent the governemt from becomming a military >>dictatorship (which is what happened there after all)? > > That is what almost happened, but didn't. Exactly my point, it would have been more difficult if the citizens had been armed, maybe not happened at all. > >>Seems like plenty of reasons to own a weapon. > > > Not at all. Yep, that's exactly the argument I expected from one of the group's socialists. -- When man took to his bed the Computer, there was great rejoicing, and great fear too, for their children were almost like gods. The mainbrains bestrode the galaxy at will, and changed its very face. The Silicon God, The Solid State Entity, Al Squared, Enth Generation - their names are many. And there were the Carked and Symbionts, whose daughters were the Neurosingers, Warrior-Poets, the Neurologicians and the Pilots of the Order of Mystic Mathematicians. --Horthy Hosthoh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:17:56 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: -------- On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:29:48 +0000, "Transcend" wrote: >Earth being near Romulus is easy to prove, as they got in a war early on >before the founding of the Federation. They were an early first contact >and therefore must be rather close. The Klingons are a similar situation. >If Earth is near both of those, and both of those are somewhat close to >DS9 then Earth must be somewhat close to DS9. Yep. ENT "Broken Bow" will establish Quo'nos to be about a week away at Warp 5, IIRC. -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Transcend" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:18:28 +0000 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <20010730.171816.404385864.20045@localhost.localdomain> -------- In article , "Kynes" wrote: > On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:29:48 +0000, "Transcend" > wrote: > >>Earth being near Romulus is easy to prove, as they got in a war early on >>before the founding of the Federation. They were an early first contact >>and therefore must be rather close. The Klingons are a similar >>situation. If Earth is near both of those, and both of those are >>somewhat close to DS9 then Earth must be somewhat close to DS9. > > Yep. ENT "Broken Bow" will establish Quo'nos to be about a week away at > Warp 5, IIRC. Which is fucking odd seeing as Warp 5 has been rescaled to mean 5 times the speed of light....last time I checked there was no star 5 light-weeks from Earth. -- When man took to his bed the Computer, there was great rejoicing, and great fear too, for their children were almost like gods. The mainbrains bestrode the galaxy at will, and changed its very face. The Silicon God, The Solid State Entity, Al Squared, Enth Generation - their names are many. And there were the Carked and Symbionts, whose daughters were the Neurosingers, Warrior-Poets, the Neurologicians and the Pilots of the Order of Mystic Mathematicians. --Horthy Hosthoh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Guardian 2000" Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:18:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <9k9k8r$3fu1o$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de> -------- Transcend wrote in message <20010730.062944.1601949781.19420@localhost.localdomain>... > >Earth being near Romulus is easy to prove, as they got in a war early on >before the founding of the Federation. They were an early first contact >and therefore must be rather close. The Klingons are a similar situation. >If Earth is near both of those, and both of those are somewhat close to >DS9 then Earth must be somewhat close to DS9. That really doesn't mean much, though I understand your reasoning . . . we've seen the E-D return to Earth from the most distant outskirts of Federation space in mere days ("Best of Both Worlds"[TNG]), so it's not like it would take everyone forever and a day to get back and forth. After all, in the seven years of TNG, the E-D or her crew visited the Klingon Homeworld, Romulus, Deep Space Nine (a hop, skip, and jump from Cardassia), et cetera . . . it doesn't mean they're all close. >Yep, that's exactly the argument I expected from one of the group's >socialists. The above is the funniest comment I have heard in weeks. You honestly think me a socialist? I can't help but wonder what horrendous neurochemical imbalances produced that concept in your mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Transcend" Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 05:24:37 +0000 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <20010802.052434.1188429437.25170@localhost.localdomain> -------- In article <9k9k8r$3fu1o$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de>, "Guardian 2000" wrote: > Transcend wrote in message > <20010730.062944.1601949781.19420@localhost.localdomain>... >> >>Earth being near Romulus is easy to prove, as they got in a war early on >>before the founding of the Federation. They were an early first contact >>and therefore must be rather close. The Klingons are a similar >>situation. If Earth is near both of those, and both of those are >>somewhat close to DS9 then Earth must be somewhat close to DS9. > > That really doesn't mean much, though I understand your reasoning . . . > we've seen the E-D return to Earth from the most distant outskirts of > Federation space in mere days ("Best of Both Worlds"[TNG]), so it's not > like it would take everyone forever and a day to get back and forth. > After all, in the seven years of TNG, the E-D or her crew visited the > Klingon Homeworld, Romulus, Deep Space Nine (a hop, skip, and jump from > Cardassia), et cetera . . . it doesn't mean they're all close. > Given the speed of warp it sure does. > >>Yep, that's exactly the argument I expected from one of the group's >>socialists. > > > The above is the funniest comment I have heard in weeks. You honestly > think me a socialist? I can't help but wonder what horrendous > neurochemical imbalances produced that concept in your mind. Because you are one? Given your stance on many issues that I have seen you debate I would have to condlude that you are. But I don't want to bring back those arguments. -- When man took to his bed the Computer, there was great rejoicing, and great fear too, for their children were almost like gods. The mainbrains bestrode the galaxy at will, and changed its very face. The Silicon God, The Solid State Entity, Al Squared, Enth Generation - their names are many. And there were the Carked and Symbionts, whose daughters were the Neurosingers, Warrior-Poets, the Neurologicians and the Pilots of the Order of Mystic Mathematicians. --Horthy Hosthoh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Martichi@aol.com (SirNitram) Date: 30 Jul 2001 05:17:48 -0700 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <1e5517e2.0107300417.22fb05da@posting.google.com> -------- > >> You're assuming they *couldn't* have phasers. Earth is often described > >> as a 24th Century paradise . . . what would make you want a phaser in > >> paradise? > > > >To make sure it stays a paradise? > > Then it wouldn't be paradise, would it? > Would be if you're a hunter. > > To defend yourself against criminals maybe? > > Then it wouldn't be paradise, would it? > Better than letting them free, and in some cases, obtain political office. > > What about just plain psychopaths? > > Those are extremely rare in the 24th Century. > Proof? > > What about the idea of an armed > >citizenry able to prevent the governemt from becomming a military > >dictatorship (which is what happened there after all)? > > That is what almost happened, but didn't. > There's already a military dictatorship. It's easy to see. Who owns all the starships? Who controls all communications? Who has all the high-end technology? Starfleet. > >Seems like plenty of reasons to own a weapon. > > > Not at all. Pacificistic rebel HIPPIE! I'd want a gun in the future. Especially if those Founders are around. A few drunken rednecks with one of those Founder-Finder phasers would deal with the problem. Yet in the Federation future, a few spies can upset everything. How pathetic. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ryanwolf@erols.com ("Barking Mad" MKSheppard) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 19:55:58 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3b646830.7357647@news.erols.com> -------- On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:44:46 -0500, "Guardian 2000" wrote: >Ooooh . . . . whatever will we do when a "slicer" beams into Starfleet HQ >and downloads our personnel files?!? Guardian, Starfleet doesn't practice essential "hardening" of their systems, which basically consists of putting all of the classified stuff onto it's own separate network than the rest of the system. And computers with the classified network DO NOT INTERACT with the rest of the system. - only within the classified network. If you want to be paranoid, set up a SINGLE workstation with all of your Ultra-Secret data in the deepest reaches of SF HQ, guarded by armed guards, inside a faraday cage, with no disk drives, etc. This is pretty basic hardware-reliant security. I'm sure our more knowledgeable comp-sci majors can enlighten us on the software side of things, such as encryption that takes more effort to crack than simply swapping some isolinear chips around. >Vader's captains certainly didn't agree. They weren't the ones on the 17.6 km SSD. :D And they weren't the ones with the Force Choking skills. When Vader orders you to do something, even shooting yourself in the foot, YOU DO IT. >Yes, it does. Changeling infiltrators kick ass. True, if we rely on basic visual ID. They can change disguise instantly, going from a tall thin man to a short fat, dumpy woman. No security man is going to link the fat woman in the ugly dress with the tall, lithe fellow he was chasing a moment ago, unless the woman walks out from an alley he saw the thin guy run into moments ago. Against tricorder-armed guards...not so easy. But the guards are vunerable when they use the tricorders (head looking at tricorder, not at the target). Basically, SF can make the changelings work harder by forcing people going to vital areas have to pass through choke points lined with hi-res scanners, and forcing them to leave EVERYTHING, except their clothes behind. No changelings disguised as suitcases here... But with something that can shrink to a pseudopod about 5mm wide, you can't harden completely, unless you put a shield around the entire thing, and even then, the changelings can burrow under the shield... >You're assuming they *couldn't* have phasers. Earth is often described as >a 24th Century paradise . . . what would make you want a phaser in paradise? To defend yourself from criminals and governments-gone-bad. --------------------------------------------------------- "There are some opinions which are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -George Orwell ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:00:56 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: -------- On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:44:46 -0500, "Guardian 2000" wrote: >>STARFLEET COMPUTER SECURITY >> >>Several people have complained about my db entry on "Homefront," saying >that >>computer security was only compromised because the kiddies from the Academy >had >>high-level access codes. I give you this: >> >>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-breakin.avi >> >> ODO: It's all yours. I suggest you hurry -- I doubt it'll take them very >> long to discover that we're here. >> >> SISKO: I never knew it was so easy to break into classified Starfleet >> files. >> >> ODO: Everything I know I learned from Quark. >> >>God damn, are the writers of this show secretly pro-SW debaters, or what? >If Odo >>had just been able to break in due to his prowess, there might be a case >here -- >>but Sisko comments that it's "easy" and Odo informs us that Quark (a >>professional bartender) taught him how to do this! >> >>I repeat: an Imperial slicer would have a field day in the Federation. > >Ooooh . . . . whatever will we do when a "slicer" beams into Starfleet HQ >and downloads our personnel files?!? Sisko was accessing all of the activity of a Starfleet Admiral for the past several months. He also said "Starfleet files," nothing about just personnel. If you're too dumb to imagine how this might be used against the Feds, then I don't think you should admit it. >>SPEED OF WARP >> >>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-defiant.avi >> >> SISKO: Chief, how'd you get here? >> >> "O'BRIEN": You don't look so good. You've got a lot on your mind, I bet. >> How's your father? >> >> SISKO: There's no way the Defiant could get here so soon. >> >>Although we don't know when the last time Sisko talked to the station was >before >>this, it probably would have been about a day before when he was first >finding >>out about what Leyton had done. Sisko says there's "no way" the Defiant >could >>get to Earth in this time. >> >>Of course, we don't know the distance but this does establish that even >travel >>Earth<->DS9 is a major undertaking. > >Yeah, it takes less than a week to get from the most remote Federation >planet to Earth. I'd be surprised if it only took the Defiant a day to get >from DS9, too. I guess when you're used to pathetically slow warp speeds, a week to go a few thousand light years does seem pretty normal. (Contrast with 60,000 light years in a few hours in TPM) >>ASTEROID FIELDS AND STARFLEET SHIPS >> >>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-risk.avi >> >> LEYTON: Remember when we were on the Okanawa fighting the Zenkathi? That >> >> time when I wanted to take the ship into an asteroid belt to chase down >> those three raiders? >> >> SISKO: And I said it was an unnecessary risk. >> >>Contrast with "Asteroids do not concern me; I want that ship. Not excuses." > >Vader's captains certainly didn't agree. So what? Combine this example with dozens of others where ST ships wouldn't enter asteroid fields ("Homestead" from Voyager is another good example) and you have a pretty clear demonstration. >>EASE OF DISRUPTING EARTH >> >>This just lends more credence to what we already know from yesterday; Earth >is >>very vulnerable, and with a moderate amount of intelligence, only a few >people >>are needed to subvert it. >> >>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-four.avi >> >> "O'BRIEN": What if I were to tell you that there are only four -- on >> this entire planet? Eh? Not counting Constable Odo, of course. Think of >> it. Just _four_ of us. And look at the havoc we've wrought. >> >> SISKO: How do I know you're telling me the truth? >> >> "O'BRIEN": Oh, four is more than enough. >> >>Four changelings and Earth's in chaos. Speaks for itself, I think. > >Yes, it does. Changeling infiltrators kick ass. As would Imperial infiltrators with holoshrouds. >>Now a brief section on the Defiant before we get to the arms-control stuff. >This >>episode provides us with a short Defiant battle sequence and I can't >believe it >>hasn't been brought up in these groups before. > >It has. I've brought it up before. Did you miss the next line: >>In fact, it has. ? >> Andrew Muir, my mentor, brought it up all the time in >debates >>with TJ and Elim. Wayne used to have a clip of the scene on his site. Now I >>bring it to you. >> >>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-range.avi >> >> KIRA: The Lakota's targeting their weapons on our warp engines. > >>Check this clip out. It's 1.7MB but well worth it -- the Defiant and Lakota >>sloooowlllly fly toward one another in a verrrry straight line and only >when >>they're less than 1km apart do they actually come "in range!" In fact, Worf >is >>so unconcerned about the possibility of their firing earlier that he >doesn't >>even raise shields until then! > >Though I'll have to ponder this further, you might be right. Glad we agree. I'll save your examples for further reference. >>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-speeds.avi >> >> [It's all visual] >> >>Anyone discussing the high battle speeds of ST ships may take a look at >this... >>the Defiant does a slow barrell roll as the Lakota slowly turns, then it >does >>another kind of half-roll and turns around for about 5 seconds, then drifts >>slowly above the unmoving Lakota as the two exchange phaser fire. It takes >the >>Defiant at least 4 seconds to go the length of the Lakota. > >As I recall, one of the examples of the Defiant having regular beam-phasers >comes from this battle sequence. Did you happen to notice that? Uh, I noticed it, but what does it have to do with the assertion I'm making? >>FEDERATION ARMS CONTROL > >>The implication here is a clear one. With a couple of guys with phaser >rifles >>standing around on streetcorners, Admiral Leyton was able to control an >entire >>planet. Why? "All those phasers," according to Joseph Sisko -- indicating >that >>the reason it was so easy was because Earth's citizens couldn't have arms >>themselves, making a couple of dumbass ensigns more than enough. >> >>This shouldn't surprise anyone -- the Federation is, after all, a communist >>dictatorship -- but it is more evidence to add to the pile. > >You're assuming they *couldn't* have phasers. Earth is often described as >a 24th Century paradise . . . what would make you want a phaser in paradise? Oh, I don't know, to prevent a military coup? -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Guardian 2000" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:36:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <9k2rbg$2bcgi$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de> -------- Kynes wrote in message ... >Sisko was accessing all of the activity of a Starfleet Admiral for the past >several months. He also said "Starfleet files," nothing about just personnel. We saw what Odo was looking at, moron. > If you're too dumb to imagine how this might be used against the Feds, then I don't >think you should admit it. If you're too dumb to realize that the Empire wouldn't even come close to being able to do what Odo did . . . oh, wait, you are, and you, being you, will never admit it. > >>>SPEED OF WARP >>> >>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-defiant.avi >>> >>> SISKO: Chief, how'd you get here? >>> >>> "O'BRIEN": You don't look so good. You've got a lot on your mind, I bet. >>> How's your father? >>> >>> SISKO: There's no way the Defiant could get here so soon. >>> >>>Although we don't know when the last time Sisko talked to the station was >>before >>>this, it probably would have been about a day before when he was first >>finding >>>out about what Leyton had done. Sisko says there's "no way" the Defiant >>could >>>get to Earth in this time. >>> >>>Of course, we don't know the distance but this does establish that even >>travel >>>Earth<->DS9 is a major undertaking. >> >>Yeah, it takes less than a week to get from the most remote Federation >>planet to Earth. I'd be surprised if it only took the Defiant a day to get >>from DS9, too. > >I guess when you're used to pathetically slow warp speeds, a week to go a few >thousand light years does seem pretty normal. (Contrast with 60,000 light years >in a few hours in TPM) Proof? > >>>ASTEROID FIELDS AND STARFLEET SHIPS >>> >>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-risk.avi >>> >>> LEYTON: Remember when we were on the Okanawa fighting the Zenkathi? That >>> >>> time when I wanted to take the ship into an asteroid belt to chase down >>> those three raiders? >>> >>> SISKO: And I said it was an unnecessary risk. >>> >>>Contrast with "Asteroids do not concern me; I want that ship. Not excuses." >> >>Vader's captains certainly didn't agree. > >So what? Combine this example with dozens of others where ST ships wouldn't >enter asteroid fields ("Homestead" from Voyager is another good example) and you >have a pretty clear demonstration. Starfleet vessels have entered asteroid fields on several occasions, and even entered an asteroid. I don't know where you think "dozens of other" examples are, but you'd better prove that. >> >>Yes, it does. Changeling infiltrators kick ass. > >As would Imperial infiltrators with holoshrouds. They wouldn't pass the first blood screening. >>Though I'll have to ponder this further, you might be right. > >Glad we agree. I'll save your examples for further reference. Then we agree . . . Starfleet and other vessels have extreme range, unless they are intending to disable, not destroy, in which case they have to get in closer. >>As I recall, one of the examples of the Defiant having regular beam-phasers >>comes from this battle sequence. Did you happen to notice that? > >Uh, I noticed it, but what does it have to do with the assertion I'm making? Just an example of you failing to include something relevant in the episode. >>You're assuming they *couldn't* have phasers. Earth is often described as >>a 24th Century paradise . . . what would make you want a phaser in paradise? > >Oh, I don't know, to prevent a military coup? Which seemed so impossibly unlikely that they were more willing to believe a Founder was causing all the problems. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Transcend" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:31:36 +0000 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <20010730.063132.82182264.19420@localhost.localdomain> -------- In article <9k2rbg$2bcgi$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de>, "Guardian 2000" wrote: >> >>As would Imperial infiltrators with holoshrouds. > > They wouldn't pass the first blood screening. And why not? They'd be human after all. -- When man took to his bed the Computer, there was great rejoicing, and great fear too, for their children were almost like gods. The mainbrains bestrode the galaxy at will, and changed its very face. The Silicon God, The Solid State Entity, Al Squared, Enth Generation - their names are many. And there were the Carked and Symbionts, whose daughters were the Neurosingers, Warrior-Poets, the Neurologicians and the Pilots of the Order of Mystic Mathematicians. --Horthy Hosthoh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:19:08 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: -------- On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:31:36 +0000, "Transcend" wrote: >>>As would Imperial infiltrators with holoshrouds. >> >> They wouldn't pass the first blood screening. > >And why not? They'd be human after all. Agreed. It's not like they're running DNA tests. It's just a little glass tube. "Yeah, sure, take all the blood you want. Just don't simulate the growth of the person and see they don't look like me" -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:02:10 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: -------- On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:36:07 -0500, "Guardian 2000" wrote: >>Sisko was accessing all of the activity of a Starfleet Admiral for the past >>several months. He also said "Starfleet files," nothing about just >personnel. > >We saw what Odo was looking at, moron. Very good. Your daycare workers may be impressed when you remember the details of the current conversation, but I'm not. Do you have an argument to make or would you just like to run your mouth some more? >> If you're too dumb to imagine how this might be used against the Feds, >then I don't >>think you should admit it. > > >If you're too dumb to realize that the Empire wouldn't even come close to >being able to do what Odo did . . . oh, wait, you are, and you, being you, >will never admit it. I guess bartenders in backwater mining stations do fall above professional computer slicers in the ... wait... a ... minute... >>>>SPEED OF WARP >>>> >>>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-defiant.avi >>>> >>>> SISKO: Chief, how'd you get here? >>>> >>>> "O'BRIEN": You don't look so good. You've got a lot on your mind, I bet. >>>> How's your father? >>>> >>>> SISKO: There's no way the Defiant could get here so soon. >>>> >>>>Although we don't know when the last time Sisko talked to the station was >>>before >>>>this, it probably would have been about a day before when he was first >>>finding >>>>out about what Leyton had done. Sisko says there's "no way" the Defiant >>>could >>>>get to Earth in this time. >>>> >>>>Of course, we don't know the distance but this does establish that even >>>travel >>>>Earth<->DS9 is a major undertaking. >>> >>>Yeah, it takes less than a week to get from the most remote Federation >>>planet to Earth. I'd be surprised if it only took the Defiant a day to >get >>>from DS9, too. >> >>I guess when you're used to pathetically slow warp speeds, a week to go a >few >>thousand light years does seem pretty normal. (Contrast with 60,000 light >years >>in a few hours in TPM) > >Proof? Watch the movie, Scott. I hope that it's not marginalizing you too much to ask you to spend $3.99 on the rental. >>>>ASTEROID FIELDS AND STARFLEET SHIPS >>>> >>>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-risk.avi >>>> >>>> LEYTON: Remember when we were on the Okanawa fighting the Zenkathi? That >>>> >>>> time when I wanted to take the ship into an asteroid belt to chase down >>>> those three raiders? >>>> >>>> SISKO: And I said it was an unnecessary risk. >>>> >>>>Contrast with "Asteroids do not concern me; I want that ship. Not >excuses." >>> >>>Vader's captains certainly didn't agree. >> >>So what? Combine this example with dozens of others where ST ships wouldn't >>enter asteroid fields ("Homestead" from Voyager is another good example) >and you >>have a pretty clear demonstration. > >Starfleet vessels have entered asteroid fields on several occasions, and >even entered an asteroid. I don't know where you think "dozens of other" >examples are, but you'd better prove that. Yes, I'd better respond to your non-evidenced bullshit claims with proof. >>>Yes, it does. Changeling infiltrators kick ass. >> >>As would Imperial infiltrators with holoshrouds. > >They wouldn't pass the first blood screening. Why in fuck would the Federation still be doing bloodscreenings AFTER the Dominion War? >>>Though I'll have to ponder this further, you might be right. >> >>Glad we agree. I'll save your examples for further reference. > > >Then we agree . . . Starfleet and other vessels have extreme range, unless >they are intending to disable, not destroy, in which case they have to get >in closer. Proof? Oh, none. Thanks anyway. >>>As I recall, one of the examples of the Defiant having regular >beam-phasers >>>comes from this battle sequence. Did you happen to notice that? >> >>Uh, I noticed it, but what does it have to do with the assertion I'm >making? > >Just an example of you failing to include something relevant in the episode. It's not my job to make a library of every piece of dialogue. When I cut episodes, I cut them my way. You don't like it? Get off your ass and do it yourself. >>>You're assuming they *couldn't* have phasers. Earth is often described >as >>>a 24th Century paradise . . . what would make you want a phaser in >paradise? >> >>Oh, I don't know, to prevent a military coup? > > >Which seemed so impossibly unlikely that they were more willing to believe a >Founder was causing all the problems. Yeah, and look how unlikely it really was! -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Guardian 2000" Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 18:46:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <9kklf0$55u5m$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de> -------- Kynes wrote in message ... >On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:36:07 -0500, "Guardian 2000" wrote: > >>>Sisko was accessing all of the activity of a Starfleet Admiral for the past >>>several months. He also said "Starfleet files," nothing about just >>personnel. >> >>We saw what Odo was looking at, moron. > >Very good. Yes, it was. The personnel documents were right there on the screen. >>> If you're too dumb to imagine how this might be used against the Feds, >>then I don't >>>think you should admit it. >> >> >>If you're too dumb to realize that the Empire wouldn't even come close to >>being able to do what Odo did . . . oh, wait, you are, and you, being you, >>will never admit it. > >I guess bartenders in backwater mining stations do fall above professional >computer slicers in the ... wait... a ... minute... > >>>>>SPEED OF WARP >>>>> >>>>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-defiant.avi >>>>> >>>>> SISKO: Chief, how'd you get here? >>>>> >>>>> "O'BRIEN": You don't look so good. You've got a lot on your mind, I bet. >>>>> How's your father? >>>>> >>>>> SISKO: There's no way the Defiant could get here so soon. >>>>> >>>>>Although we don't know when the last time Sisko talked to the station was >>>>before >>>>>this, it probably would have been about a day before when he was first >>>>finding >>>>>out about what Leyton had done. Sisko says there's "no way" the Defiant >>>>could >>>>>get to Earth in this time. >>>>> >>>>>Of course, we don't know the distance but this does establish that even >>>>travel >>>>>Earth<->DS9 is a major undertaking. >>>> >>>>Yeah, it takes less than a week to get from the most remote Federation >>>>planet to Earth. I'd be surprised if it only took the Defiant a day to >>get >>>>from DS9, too. >>> >>>I guess when you're used to pathetically slow warp speeds, a week to go a >>few >>>thousand light years does seem pretty normal. (Contrast with 60,000 light >>years >>>in a few hours in TPM) >> >>Proof? > >Watch the movie, Scott. Ahem . . . I've seen the movie, don't see where it says a few hours, so I'll say it again. Proof? >>>>>ASTEROID FIELDS AND STARFLEET SHIPS >>>>> >>>>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9ParadiseLost-risk.avi >>>>> >>>>> LEYTON: Remember when we were on the Okanawa fighting the Zenkathi? That >>>>> >>>>> time when I wanted to take the ship into an asteroid belt to chase down >>>>> those three raiders? >>>>> >>>>> SISKO: And I said it was an unnecessary risk. >>>>> >>>>>Contrast with "Asteroids do not concern me; I want that ship. Not >>excuses." >>>> >>>>Vader's captains certainly didn't agree. >>> >>>So what? Combine this example with dozens of others where ST ships wouldn't >>>enter asteroid fields ("Homestead" from Voyager is another good example) >>and you >>>have a pretty clear demonstration. >> >>Starfleet vessels have entered asteroid fields on several occasions, and >>even entered an asteroid. I don't know where you think "dozens of other" >>examples are, but you'd better prove that. > >Yes, I'd better respond to your non-evidenced bullshit claims with proof. I'm waiting. > >>>>Yes, it does. Changeling infiltrators kick ass. >>> >>>As would Imperial infiltrators with holoshrouds. >> >>They wouldn't pass the first blood screening. > >Why in fuck would the Federation still be doing bloodscreenings AFTER the >Dominion War? Oh, gee, I don't know . . . maybe because there are still shapeshifters around? > >>>>Though I'll have to ponder this further, you might be right. >>> >>>Glad we agree. I'll save your examples for further reference. >> >> >>Then we agree . . . Starfleet and other vessels have extreme range, unless >>they are intending to disable, not destroy, in which case they have to get >>in closer. > >Proof? Oh, none. Thanks anyway. Your ignorance has been noted and logged. > >>>>As I recall, one of the examples of the Defiant having regular >>beam-phasers >>>>comes from this battle sequence. Did you happen to notice that? >>> >>>Uh, I noticed it, but what does it have to do with the assertion I'm >>making? >> >>Just an example of you failing to include something relevant in the episode. > >It's not my job to make a library of every piece of dialogue. When I cut >episodes, I cut them my way. You don't like it? Aww, don't be angry. I was just getting you to confess the above openly. >>>>You're assuming they *couldn't* have phasers. Earth is often described >>as >>>>a 24th Century paradise . . . what would make you want a phaser in >>paradise? >>> >>>Oh, I don't know, to prevent a military coup? >> >> >>Which seemed so impossibly unlikely that they were more willing to believe a >>Founder was causing all the problems. > >Yeah, and look how unlikely it really was! Yes, it seemed impossibly unlikely. But, since unlikely things happen in both universes, this hardly makes for an argument on your part. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Durandal Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 23:05:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3B6E179A.39CCCED9@mac.com> -------- Guardian 2000 wrote: > Ahem . . . I've seen the movie, don't see where it says a few hours, so I'll > say it again. Proof? I can't believe I'm reading this. Darth Maul travels from Coruscant to Tatooine in the space of a few hours on Tatooine. -- Damien Sorresso "The older you get, the more interested you are in Britney Spears." -John McCain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Guardian 2000" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 06:21:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <9l0fmr$6s6df$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de> -------- Durandal wrote in message <3B6E179A.39CCCED9@mac.com>... >Guardian 2000 wrote: > >> Ahem . . . I've seen the movie, don't see where it says a few hours, so I'll >> say it again. Proof? > >I can't believe I'm reading this. >Darth Maul travels from Coruscant to Tatooine in the space of a few >hours on Tatooine. Proof it was a few hours, besides the comment about "tomorrow"? Do we have evidence of the length of a Tatooine day? (For that matter, what the hell do you call a "day" when there are two suns in the sky?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Transcend" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:29:48 +0000 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <20010810.142942.1387459803.23819@localhost.localdomain> -------- In article <9l0fmr$6s6df$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de>, "Guardian 2000" wrote: > Durandal wrote in message <3B6E179A.39CCCED9@mac.com>... >>Guardian 2000 wrote: >> >>> Ahem . . . I've seen the movie, don't see where it says a few hours, >>> so > I'll >>> say it again. Proof? >> >>I can't believe I'm reading this. >>Darth Maul travels from Coruscant to Tatooine in the space of a few >>hours on Tatooine. > > Proof it was a few hours, besides the comment about "tomorrow"? Do we > have evidence of the length of a Tatooine day? ANH. We see night and the next day, and it is a rather short period of time as Vader's troops were still running around looking for droids. If a night there was unusually long (Earth days or weeks say) then Luke would not have had any hope of finding R2-D2 the next day either, as he would have been *long* gone. Therefore a day there is likely a similar period of time as a day here. > (For that matter, what the hell do you call a "day" when there are two > suns in the sky?) When we've seen them they have appeared as fairly close together, it makes sense that they would set at roughly similar times. Therefore what they call a day would be the same thing we call a day, roughly. -- When man took to his bed the Computer, there was great rejoicing, and great fear too, for their children were almost like gods. The mainbrains bestrode the galaxy at will, and changed its very face. The Silicon God, The Solid State Entity, Al Squared, Enth Generation - their names are many. And there were the Carked and Symbionts, whose daughters were the Neurosingers, Warrior-Poets, the Neurologicians and the Pilots of the Order of Mystic Mathematicians. --Horthy Hosthoh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Transcend" Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 18:49:29 +0000 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <20010811.184925.811453090.25891@localhost.localdomain> -------- In article <20010810.142942.1387459803.23819@localhost.localdomain>, "Transcend" wrote: > In article <9l0fmr$6s6df$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de>, "Guardian 2000" > wrote: > >> Durandal wrote in message <3B6E179A.39CCCED9@mac.com>... >>>Guardian 2000 wrote: >>> >>>> Ahem . . . I've seen the movie, don't see where it says a few hours, >>>> so >> I'll >>>> say it again. Proof? >>> >>>I can't believe I'm reading this. >>>Darth Maul travels from Coruscant to Tatooine in the space of a few >>>hours on Tatooine. >> >> Proof it was a few hours, besides the comment about "tomorrow"? Do we >> have evidence of the length of a Tatooine day? > > ANH. We see night and the next day, and it is a rather short period of > time as Vader's troops were still running around looking for droids. If > a night there was unusually long (Earth days or weeks say) then Luke > would not have had any hope of finding R2-D2 the next day either, as he > would have been *long* gone. Therefore a day there is likely a similar > period of time as a day here. > > >> (For that matter, what the hell do you call a "day" when there are two >> suns in the sky?) > > When we've seen them they have appeared as fairly close together, it > makes sense that they would set at roughly similar times. Therefore what > they call a day would be the same thing we call a day, roughly. > > Concession Accepted Guardian 2000 -- When man took to his bed the Computer, there was great rejoicing, and great fear too, for their children were almost like gods. The mainbrains bestrode the galaxy at will, and changed its very face. The Silicon God, The Solid State Entity, Al Squared, Enth Generation - their names are many. And there were the Carked and Symbionts, whose daughters were the Neurosingers, Warrior-Poets, the Neurologicians and the Pilots of the Order of Mystic Mathematicians. --Horthy Hosthoh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Transcend" Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 18:56:54 +0000 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <20010811.185649.1972699842.25891@localhost.localdomain> -------- In article <20010811.184925.811453090.25891@localhost.localdomain>, "Transcend" wrote: > In article <20010810.142942.1387459803.23819@localhost.localdomain>, > "Transcend" wrote: > >> In article <9l0fmr$6s6df$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de>, "Guardian 2000" >> wrote: >> >>> Durandal wrote in message <3B6E179A.39CCCED9@mac.com>... >>>>Guardian 2000 wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ahem . . . I've seen the movie, don't see where it says a few hours, >>>>> so >>> I'll >>>>> say it again. Proof? >>>> >>>>I can't believe I'm reading this. >>>>Darth Maul travels from Coruscant to Tatooine in the space of a few >>>>hours on Tatooine. >>> >>> Proof it was a few hours, besides the comment about "tomorrow"? Do >>> we have evidence of the length of a Tatooine day? >> >> ANH. We see night and the next day, and it is a rather short period of >> time as Vader's troops were still running around looking for droids. If >> a night there was unusually long (Earth days or weeks say) then Luke >> would not have had any hope of finding R2-D2 the next day either, as he >> would have been *long* gone. Therefore a day there is likely a similar >> period of time as a day here. >> >> >>> (For that matter, what the hell do you call a "day" when there are two >>> suns in the sky?) >> >> When we've seen them they have appeared as fairly close together, it >> makes sense that they would set at roughly similar times. Therefore >> what they call a day would be the same thing we call a day, roughly. >> >> >> > Concession Accepted Guardian 2000 Whoops, forgot to give him enough time to respond :-) Oh well, the result will be the same. -- When man took to his bed the Computer, there was great rejoicing, and great fear too, for their children were almost like gods. The mainbrains bestrode the galaxy at will, and changed its very face. The Silicon God, The Solid State Entity, Al Squared, Enth Generation - their names are many. And there were the Carked and Symbionts, whose daughters were the Neurosingers, Warrior-Poets, the Neurologicians and the Pilots of the Order of Mystic Mathematicians. --Horthy Hosthoh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:05:46 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: -------- On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:29:48 +0000, "Transcend" wrote: >> (For that matter, what the hell do you call a "day" when there are two >> suns in the sky?) > >When we've seen them they have appeared as fairly close together, it makes >sense that they would set at roughly similar times. Therefore what they >call a day would be the same thing we call a day, roughly. Yep. In fact, in the early scenes of ANH, we see them both setting at the same time, which makes perfect sense. * Star1 *Star 2 *Planet1 Planet1 rotates and night and day is pretty much the same. -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ryanwolf@erols.com ("Barking Mad" MKSheppard) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:40:54 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3b6755ce.1733666@news.erols.com> -------- On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:00:56 GMT, Kynes wrote: >Oh, I don't know, to prevent a military coup? LONG LIVE THE 2nd AMENDMENT! --------------------------------------------------------- "There are some opinions which are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -George Orwell ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Durandal Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:13:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Paradise Lost" Message-ID: <3B65B1D8.D9568B01@mac.com> -------- Barking Mad MKSheppard wrote: > > On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:00:56 GMT, Kynes wrote: > > >Oh, I don't know, to prevent a military coup? > > LONG LIVE THE 2nd AMENDMENT! Yes, because all of the Federation's citizens should be able to own any weapon of their choosing (including military-grade), without a license, sanity checks, background checks, et cetera. That is what you're saying, isn't it? -- Damien Sorresso "The older you get, the more interested you are in Britney Spears." -John McCain