---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Guardian 2000" Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:27:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: <9jt7h2$1g89d$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de> -------- Kynes wrote in message ... >This very clearly shows that, while he's regenerating, Odo (and thus, the >Founders in general) are totally unaware of their surroundings. Odo is unable to >detect Dax breaking in to his quarters for long enough to move his furniture, >despite the fact that she's done this several times! I recently took part in a sleep study. Every night of this, I had approximately 30 various electrodes taped to my body, with wires coiled around me. A heart monitor was affixed to my finger, and a breath-rate sensor was taped over my upper lip. A (comparatively) large, heavy device of some sort was attached to my neck. Two devices were strapped across my chest, and two other devices were strapped around my legs. I slept like a baby, as I always do, but was rather surprised the morning after to learn that attendants had, for example, moved the table beside the bed, and had brought in a large freestanding fan in the middle of the night and turned it on high. Of course, this isn't altogether surprising, since I have eight alarms in my bedroom, and sometimes I sleep through them for hours. The third loudest of these can be heard from the furthest room away in the next building over, which means the sound is piercing three walls and traveling about thirty feet. Odo is a wuss compared to that. :-) >Also, is anyone else disturbed that the station's chief of security can't >prevent a break-in to his own room? "Starfleet Security" is an oxymoron. 1. Odo is not Starfleet. 2. Dax is a computer whiz . . . and Starfleet . . .and, altogether, a few hundred years old. > NOG: It's an elite squad of cadets at the Academy. You know -- the best > of the best. They get special classes, simulated missions, off-campus > training sessions, all kinds of things! > >Telling. Starfleet Academy affords simulated missions only to a small number of >its cadets, and apparently field trips are a luxury in 24th-century Earth. >Judging by this, most learning in Starfleet Academy is done in the classroom >rather than the field. Do not think that because Red Squad gets simulated missions, others do not. Wesley Crusher had a simulated situation before he was even in the academy (the "psych test" that all must face, according to "Coming of Age"[TNG]), and I trust you have heard of the Kobayashi Maru. The academy in Kirk's day also had "psychosimulator" tests, which Merrick failed ("Bread and Circuses"[TOS]). Further, "field trips" are hardly unknown. Recall that Spock was captain of the Enterprise during her tour as a *cadet training* vessel, and it was common for cadets to receive rank and post aboard starships (Saavik in STII, Kirk in "Court Martial"[TOS], et cetera) in a sort of internship. >You heard it. Starfleet has civilian families "all over" the Federation, >confirming Starfleet's bizarre and immoral policy of placing these people in >harm's way even though they wear no uniform and took no oath. 1. Ever heard of "West Germany"? 2. Your sentence is structured in such a way as to imply that Starfleet forces families to stay in harm's way. You're right, they wear no uniform, and as far as we know, they took no oath. But they were not 'placed' there . . . they went of their own volition. > > >WIDE-BEAM PHASER POWER > >http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9Homefront-odotest.avi > > SISKO: Activate the phaser. > > (Wide-beam phaser sprays the whole room for a few seconds, then a plant > turns into Odo.) > > SISKO: That's enough. How do you feel? > > ODO: Well, that time I definitely experienced discomfort. > > SISKO: What was the setting? > > BENTEEN: 3.1. If we set the phasers at 3.4, we should be able to stun > any Changeling we hit and force them back into a gelatinous state. > > ODO: I'd push it to 3.5, just to be on the safe side. But if you want to > > do any more tests, you'll have to get another guinea pig. I've been > shocked quite enough for one day. > > SISKO: 3.5 it is. I want these units installed in every room in > Starfleet and Federation Headquarters. Then start working on the orbital > stations. > > BENTEEN: I'll have them in place by tomorrow night. I want to thank you, > Captain. > > SISKO: Thank me? For what? > > BENTEEN: For convincing the President to implement these security > measures. Feels like we're finally on the right track. > > ODO: Think she would have thanked me, as well. I'm the one who got shot > 13 times today. > >Note that a phaser setting of 3.1 on wide-beam isn't enough to even damage >furniture, much less actually hurt anyone. Odo was shot 13 times with a >wide-beam phaser at various settings and was a little annoyed, but not hurt. >This confirms what we've always known -- wide-beam phasers are weak, and using >them to mow down soldiers is totally impossible. Setting 3.4 was to be used for stunning changelings. Since setting 3.1 had no real stunning effect, we must assume that changelings are resistant to lower stun settings. Alternately, they are not, but 3.1 on extreme widebeam has little effect at the range observed. However, the range observed was maybe three meters, whereas the phaser unit was designed to sweep the entire room (a room much larger than three meters). Yet another (and more likely) alternative is that the phaser was calibrated to deliver an amount of energy roughly equal to setting 3.1 at distance. In any case, I note the fact that you ignored the idea that dozens, if not hundreds, of those never-before-seen (and never-before-needed) devices were installed in about 36 hours. > > >EARTH IS PRONE FOR INVASION > >Okay, now the big stuff. The crux of this episode is that the Federation is >totally unprepared for a war which involves assault on Earth. Luckily for them, >warp travel makes this hard to do on short notice, but we know this isn't the >case with hyperdrive. The Borg (as well as the Enterprise-D) made it from the most distant Federation colony to Earth in less than a week (I think I'd worked it out to three days, but I'll have to find the tape and do the math again). >This scene is very telling coupled with the one above. To do anything, Starfleet >ultimately needs the President's approval, but Leyton makes it quite clear that >this dude is unable to handle himself with a war. As we have no evidence that >he's not the President anymore, we can only assume that it'll be Mister "Don't >Make Waves" at the helm come Imperial invasion time. The President was obviously willing to lead his people in a bloody war. > SISKO: The Jem'Hadar are the most brutal and efficient soldiers I've > ever encountered. They don't care about the conventions of war, or > protecting civilians. They will not limit themselves to military > targets. They'll be waging the kind of war Earth hasn't seen since the > founding of the Federation. > >Sounds like the Imperials. :) More proof that the Federation doesn't know how >to wage a ground war. How did you get "doesn't know how to wage a ground war" from the quote? > > >SUSCEPTIBILITY OF EARTH'S POWER GRID TO SABOTAGE > >Now here's a kicker. One of the key plot points of this episode is that Earth's >power grid -- ALL of it -- is totally knocked offline by a Dominion saboteur. When did a number Starfleet officers attempting a coup shapeshift into a single Dominion saboteur? > > ODO: Take out the power relays and you neutralize sensors, tranporters, > surface-based defense installations... > > SISKO: In other words, Earth is defenseless. > > LEYTON: If the Dominion attacks now... we don't stand a chance. > > >Wow, holy shit! A saboteur can make an entire planet defenseless? There's a >single point of failure for electricity over an entire planet, the crown jewel >of the Federation at that? Did you forget that Federation technology isn't based on simple electricity? > >Also, you'll note Odo says nothing about planetary shields... He also didn't mention phasers, photon torpedoes, et cetera. You know what's sad? Overall, your use of captures hasn't done a damn thing to prevent you from making asinine claims about Star Trek. So very sad. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 02:48:50 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: -------- On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:27:00 -0500, "Guardian 2000" wrote: >>This very clearly shows that, while he's regenerating, Odo (and thus, the >>Founders in general) are totally unaware of their surroundings. Odo is >unable to >>detect Dax breaking in to his quarters for long enough to move his >furniture, >>despite the fact that she's done this several times! > >I recently took part in a sleep study. [snip boring story] Thanks for further revealing your personal inadequacies. Do you have something to say about the evidence presented or is that all? >>Also, is anyone else disturbed that the station's chief of security can't >>prevent a break-in to his own room? "Starfleet Security" is an oxymoron. > >1. Odo is not Starfleet. He was chief of security on a joint Starfleet/Bajoran station. Sisko thought he was great and took him all over the place. He was brought into top-level Starfleet security briefings (which you'd know if you'd actually watched this episode). If anything, he's better than most Starfleet security. >2. Dax is a computer whiz . . . and Starfleet . . .and, altogether, a few >hundred years old. 1. Prove Dax is a computer whiz. 2. So what if she's "Starfleet?" And old? Odo is still the chief of security on DS9. If all it takes to crack the best security in the galaxy is being a "computer whiz" then my claims of vulnerability to slicers is even more true. >> NOG: It's an elite squad of cadets at the Academy. You know -- the best >> of the best. They get special classes, simulated missions, off-campus >> training sessions, all kinds of things! >> >>Telling. Starfleet Academy affords simulated missions only to a small >number of >>its cadets, and apparently field trips are a luxury in 24th-century Earth. >>Judging by this, most learning in Starfleet Academy is done in the >classroom >>rather than the field. > >Do not think that because Red Squad gets simulated missions, others do not. That's exactly what Nog said. Otherwise, what would be the point of bringing it up? "Red Squad can go to the bathroom! Can you get me in?!" >Wesley Crusher had a simulated situation before he was even in the academy >(the "psych test" that all must face, according to "Coming of Age"[TNG]), Suddenly a "psych test" == regular simulated missions? >and I trust you have heard of the Kobayashi Maru. Don't think I've heard of it being used in Kirk's day; Nog would seem to indicate that it isn't. >Further, "field trips" are hardly unknown. Your examples are all TOS-era. Nog points out quite clearly that this has changed in the past century. >>You heard it. Starfleet has civilian families "all over" the Federation, >>confirming Starfleet's bizarre and immoral policy of placing these people >in >>harm's way even though they wear no uniform and took no oath. > >1. Ever heard of "West Germany"? Why yes. Now make an argument. >2. Your sentence is structured in such a way as to imply that Starfleet >forces families to stay in harm's way. You're right, they wear no >uniform, and as far as we know, they took no oath. But they were not >'placed' there . . . they went of their own volition. Yet the possibility of allowing these people to return home in the middle of a war was never discussed; Starfleet instead chose to force them to submit to blood-tests and other invasions of privacy whether they liked it or not. Joseph Sisko didn't seem to be doing anything "of his own volition." >>WIDE-BEAM PHASER POWER >> >>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9Homefront-odotest.avi >> >> SISKO: Activate the phaser. >> >> (Wide-beam phaser sprays the whole room for a few seconds, then a plant >> turns into Odo.) >> >> SISKO: That's enough. How do you feel? >> >> ODO: Well, that time I definitely experienced discomfort. >> >> SISKO: What was the setting? >> >> BENTEEN: 3.1. If we set the phasers at 3.4, we should be able to stun >> any Changeling we hit and force them back into a gelatinous state. >> >> ODO: I'd push it to 3.5, just to be on the safe side. But if you want to >> >> do any more tests, you'll have to get another guinea pig. I've been >> shocked quite enough for one day. >> >> SISKO: 3.5 it is. I want these units installed in every room in >> Starfleet and Federation Headquarters. Then start working on the orbital >> stations. >> >> BENTEEN: I'll have them in place by tomorrow night. I want to thank you, >> Captain. >> >> SISKO: Thank me? For what? >> >> BENTEEN: For convincing the President to implement these security >> measures. Feels like we're finally on the right track. >> >> ODO: Think she would have thanked me, as well. I'm the one who got shot >> 13 times today. >> >>Note that a phaser setting of 3.1 on wide-beam isn't enough to even damage >>furniture, much less actually hurt anyone. Odo was shot 13 times with a >>wide-beam phaser at various settings and was a little annoyed, but not >hurt. >>This confirms what we've always known -- wide-beam phasers are weak, and >using >>them to mow down soldiers is totally impossible. > >Setting 3.4 was to be used for stunning changelings. Thank you. I understand that. You have not actually answered any of the points that I made in the paragraph below. [snip] >In any case, I note the fact that you ignored the idea that dozens, if not >hundreds, of those never-before-seen (and never-before-needed) devices were >installed in about 36 hours. http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9Homefront-argueprez.avi PRESDIENT: Phaser sweeps? SISKO: They've proven very effective on Deep Space Nine. They've already been in use on DS9 for some time. I can plug in 100 lamps by myself in a day if I work really slow. Why should I be surprised they can do the same thing? >>EARTH IS PRONE FOR INVASION >> >>Okay, now the big stuff. The crux of this episode is that the Federation is >>totally unprepared for a war which involves assault on Earth. Luckily for >them, >>warp travel makes this hard to do on short notice, but we know this isn't >the >>case with hyperdrive. > >The Borg (as well as the Enterprise-D) made it from the most distant >Federation colony to Earth in less than a week (I think I'd worked it out to >three days, but I'll have to find the tape and do the math again). Uh, relevance? >>This scene is very telling coupled with the one above. To do anything, >Starfleet >>ultimately needs the President's approval, but Leyton makes it quite clear >that >>this dude is unable to handle himself with a war. As we have no evidence >that >>he's not the President anymore, we can only assume that it'll be Mister >"Don't >>Make Waves" at the helm come Imperial invasion time. > >The President was obviously willing to lead his people in a bloody war. Really? That's not what HE said. Perhaps you'd like to quote us some dialogue where he says anything like that. In fact, he indicates his dogged UNwillingness to upset the populace or fight any kind of war. >> SISKO: The Jem'Hadar are the most brutal and efficient soldiers I've >> ever encountered. They don't care about the conventions of war, or >> protecting civilians. They will not limit themselves to military >> targets. They'll be waging the kind of war Earth hasn't seen since the >> founding of the Federation. >> >>Sounds like the Imperials. :) More proof that the Federation doesn't know >how >>to wage a ground war. > >How did you get "doesn't know how to wage a ground war" from the quote? The Jem'Hadar tactics shown in "Rocks and Shoals" consist of "running really fast through a canyon at the target." The Federation thinks this is brutal and efficient? Give me a break. >>SUSCEPTIBILITY OF EARTH'S POWER GRID TO SABOTAGE >> >>Now here's a kicker. One of the key plot points of this episode is that >Earth's >>power grid -- ALL of it -- is totally knocked offline by a Dominion >saboteur. > >When did a number Starfleet officers attempting a coup shapeshift into a >single Dominion saboteur? Odo, Sisko, the President of the Federation, etc. were all perfectly willing to believe it was a Dominion saboteur. It wasn't, but they considered that the most logical explanation, indicating it ISN'T impossible. >> ODO: Take out the power relays and you neutralize sensors, tranporters, >> surface-based defense installations... >> >> SISKO: In other words, Earth is defenseless. >> >> LEYTON: If the Dominion attacks now... we don't stand a chance. >> >> >>Wow, holy shit! A saboteur can make an entire planet defenseless? There's a >>single point of failure for electricity over an entire planet, the crown >jewel >>of the Federation at that? > >Did you forget that Federation technology isn't based on simple electricity? And that excuses a single point of failure how? >>Also, you'll note Odo says nothing about planetary shields... > >He also didn't mention phasers, photon torpedoes, et cetera. "Surface-based defense installations." -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 02:54:07 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: -------- On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 02:48:50 GMT, Kynes wrote: > >>and I trust you have heard of the Kobayashi Maru. > >Don't think I've heard of it being used in Kirk's day; Nog would seem to >indicate that it isn't. Typo: I meant "since Kirk's day." -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Boyd Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 04:35:24 +0100 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: -------- Kynes wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 02:48:50 GMT, Kynes wrote: > >> >>> and I trust you have heard of the Kobayashi Maru. >> >> Don't think I've heard of it being used in Kirk's day; Nog would seem to >> indicate that it isn't. > > Typo: I meant "since Kirk's day." Spoiled my fun... -- Jonathan Boyd | http://www.jboyd.co.uk/stgod/bcaf.html "It's sneaky, it's underhanded, it's the Eldar way! Remember, you're better." - words of wisdom from WH 40K ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: seaskimmer71@hotmail.com (Sea Skimmer) Date: 27 Jul 2001 22:56:58 -0700 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: <5189920.0107272156.62e0b614@posting.google.com> -------- Kynes wrote in message news:... > On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:27:00 -0500, "Guardian 2000" wrote: > > > >>You heard it. Starfleet has civilian families "all over" the Federation, > >>confirming Starfleet's bizarre and immoral policy of placing these people > in > >>harm's way even though they wear no uniform and took no oath. > > > >1. Ever heard of "West Germany"? > > Why yes. Now make an argument. > > >2. Your sentence is structured in such a way as to imply that Starfleet > >forces families to stay in harm's way. You're right, they wear no > >uniform, and as far as we know, they took no oath. But they were not > >'placed' there . . . they went of their own volition. > > Yet the possibility of allowing these people to return home in the middle of a > war was never discussed; Starfleet instead chose to force them to submit to > blood-tests and other invasions of privacy whether they liked it or not. Joseph > Sisko didn't seem to be doing anything "of his own volition." While the US Army did have familys in Wets Germany , they did not have them in places like Korea as the risk was to great . Also Army bases are not major targets unless the Russians are useing nukes . In a Conventinal war the West would have 1-3 days of warning , more likey a week+ . This means that the army bases are all empty of troops and thus not worth bombing . Even if they where bombed , The attacking planes would likley aim at thign more important the rows of civilian homes . Anyway in case of war America planed to bring all familiys back to the USA , unlike the Federation which is at war for months and still keeps them out in thing like space stations where a attacker cant be selective in what he attacks ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Guardian 2000" Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:45:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: <9k1vp6$25s8r$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de> -------- Kynes wrote in message ... >On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:27:00 -0500, "Guardian 2000" wrote: > >>>This very clearly shows that, while he's regenerating, Odo (and thus, the >>>Founders in general) are totally unaware of their surroundings. Odo is >>unable to >>>detect Dax breaking in to his quarters for long enough to move his >>furniture, >>>despite the fact that she's done this several times! >> >>I recently took part in a sleep study. > >[snip boring story] > >Thanks for further revealing your personal inadequacies. The fact I sleep like a baby is a personal inadequacy to you? Well, that makes sense, since my depth of sleeping is based on a clear conscience. You'd never understand that. > Do you have something to say about the evidence presented or is that all? What it means, dumbass, is that you're trying to paint Odo and the Founders in general as having some abnormal weakness by "sleeping" heavily, when in fact they simply sleep as heavily as a lot of humans do. > >>>Also, is anyone else disturbed that the station's chief of security can't >>>prevent a break-in to his own room? "Starfleet Security" is an oxymoron. >> >>1. Odo is not Starfleet. > >He was chief of security on a joint Starfleet/Bajoran station. Sisko thought he >was great and took him all over the place. He was brought into top-level >Starfleet security briefings (which you'd know if you'd actually watched this >episode). Odo is not Starfleet. You obviously missed that simple point. > >If anything, he's better than most Starfleet security. Proof? >>2. Dax is a computer whiz . . . and Starfleet . . .and, altogether, a few >>hundred years old. > >1. Prove Dax is a computer whiz. She sat down in front of a 21st Century computer and very quickly learned to operate it. She was able to implant her identity into the system, able to set up a net broadcast that overrode government lockouts, et cetera. ("Past Tense, Pt. I" and "Past Tense, Pt. II"[DS9]) > >2. So what if she's "Starfleet?" And old? Odo is still the chief of security on >DS9. If all it takes to crack the best security in the galaxy is being a >"computer whiz" then my claims of vulnerability to slicers is even more true. She is a Starfleet officer . . . she's encountered various forms of computer security measures over the course of her career. Further, her being around for a few hundred years means that she's got the experience of lifetimes of computer knowledge. She knows how the station's systems work, and she's got the knowledge, training, and experience to know how to circumvent them. Besides, we've seen Starfleet vessels that have locks which can be overridden by appropriate command authorization ("Schisms"[TNG] and "Violations"[TNG]), so she may not even have used her expert skills, assuming such protocols were in place at DS9. > >>> NOG: It's an elite squad of cadets at the Academy. You know -- the best >>> of the best. They get special classes, simulated missions, off-campus >>> training sessions, all kinds of things! >>> >>>Telling. Starfleet Academy affords simulated missions only to a small >>number of >>>its cadets, and apparently field trips are a luxury in 24th-century Earth. >>>Judging by this, most learning in Starfleet Academy is done in the >>classroom >>>rather than the field. >> >>Do not think that because Red Squad gets simulated missions, others do not. > >That's exactly what Nog said. Otherwise, what would be the point of bringing it >up? You're performing the fallacy of denying the antecedent. Here, let me draw it out for you so you can understand: If p then q if not-p then not-q Or, your version: If Red Squad, then Simulated Missions If not Red Squad, then not Simulated Missions. > >>Wesley Crusher had a simulated situation before he was even in the academy >>(the "psych test" that all must face, according to "Coming of Age"[TNG]), > >Suddenly a "psych test" == regular simulated missions? It is a simulated situation, proving that such are commonly used. > >>and I trust you have heard of the Kobayashi Maru. > >Don't think I've heard of it being used in Kirk's day; Nog would seem to >indicate that it isn't. How would Nog know? He hasn't advanced that far. Obviously, if still used, it would be kept quiet, or else it would no longer serve as a test of how one deals with death. Everyone would know what to do and what was going to happen. >>Further, "field trips" are hardly unknown. > >Your examples are all TOS-era. Nog points out quite clearly that this has >changed in the past century. Nog points out no such thing, unless you're going to continue to argue off of a fallacy. > >>>You heard it. Starfleet has civilian families "all over" the Federation, >>>confirming Starfleet's bizarre and immoral policy of placing these people >>in >>>harm's way even though they wear no uniform and took no oath. >> >>1. Ever heard of "West Germany"? > >Why yes. Now make an argument. I did, you were simply too stupid to realize it. > >>2. Your sentence is structured in such a way as to imply that Starfleet >>forces families to stay in harm's way. You're right, they wear no >>uniform, and as far as we know, they took no oath. But they were not >>'placed' there . . . they went of their own volition. > >Yet the possibility of allowing these people to return home in the middle of a >war was never discussed; Because it had probably been discussed at the beginning of the war. It would now be an old issue. >Starfleet instead chose to force them to submit to >blood-tests and other invasions of privacy whether they liked it or not. Joseph >Sisko didn't seem to be doing anything "of his own volition." You moron, Joseph Sisko was on Earth. > >>>WIDE-BEAM PHASER POWER >>> >>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9Homefront-odotest.avi >>> >>> SISKO: Activate the phaser. >>> >>> (Wide-beam phaser sprays the whole room for a few seconds, then a plant >>> turns into Odo.) >>> >>> SISKO: That's enough. How do you feel? >>> >>> ODO: Well, that time I definitely experienced discomfort. >>> >>> SISKO: What was the setting? >>> >>> BENTEEN: 3.1. If we set the phasers at 3.4, we should be able to stun >>> any Changeling we hit and force them back into a gelatinous state. >>> >>> ODO: I'd push it to 3.5, just to be on the safe side. But if you want to >>> >>> do any more tests, you'll have to get another guinea pig. I've been >>> shocked quite enough for one day. >>> >>> SISKO: 3.5 it is. I want these units installed in every room in >>> Starfleet and Federation Headquarters. Then start working on the orbital >>> stations. >>> >>> BENTEEN: I'll have them in place by tomorrow night. I want to thank you, >>> Captain. >>> >>> SISKO: Thank me? For what? >>> >>> BENTEEN: For convincing the President to implement these security >>> measures. Feels like we're finally on the right track. >>> >>> ODO: Think she would have thanked me, as well. I'm the one who got shot >>> 13 times today. >>> >>>Note that a phaser setting of 3.1 on wide-beam isn't enough to even damage >>>furniture, much less actually hurt anyone. Odo was shot 13 times with a >>>wide-beam phaser at various settings and was a little annoyed, but not >>hurt. >>>This confirms what we've always known -- wide-beam phasers are weak, and >>using >>>them to mow down soldiers is totally impossible. >> >>Setting 3.4 was to be used for stunning changelings. > >Thank you. I understand that. You have not actually answered any of the points >that I made in the paragraph below. > >[snip] Hey, aren't you the one who likes to use the phrase "Lack of Argument = Admission of Defeat"? Back atcha, buddy. > >>In any case, I note the fact that you ignored the idea that dozens, if not >>hundreds, of those never-before-seen (and never-before-needed) devices were >>installed in about 36 hours. > >http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9Homefront-argueprez.avi > > PRESDIENT: Phaser sweeps? > > SISKO: They've proven very effective on Deep Space Nine. > >They've already been in use on DS9 for some time. Those were manual phaser sweeps. Guys with guns. > I can plug in 100 lamps by myself in a day if I work really slow. Why should I be surprised they can >do the same thing? They built the new "lamps" and installed them in no time flat. > >>>EARTH IS PRONE FOR INVASION >>> >>>Okay, now the big stuff. The crux of this episode is that the Federation is >>>totally unprepared for a war which involves assault on Earth. Luckily for >>them, >>>warp travel makes this hard to do on short notice, but we know this isn't >>the >>>case with hyperdrive. >> >>The Borg (as well as the Enterprise-D) made it from the most distant >>Federation colony to Earth in less than a week (I think I'd worked it out to >>three days, but I'll have to find the tape and do the math again). > >Uh, relevance? While your invasion fleet is sitting around mapping the place, we're getting ready. > >>>This scene is very telling coupled with the one above. To do anything, >>Starfleet >>>ultimately needs the President's approval, but Leyton makes it quite clear >>that >>>this dude is unable to handle himself with a war. As we have no evidence >>that >>>he's not the President anymore, we can only assume that it'll be Mister >>"Don't >>>Make Waves" at the helm come Imperial invasion time. >> >>The President was obviously willing to lead his people in a bloody war. > >Really? That's not what HE said. Perhaps you'd like to quote us some dialogue >where he says anything like that. In fact, he indicates his dogged UNwillingness >to upset the populace or fight any kind of war. You surmise that he is still the President . . . and there was a war. Either he stepped down, or he led the people in war. >>> SISKO: The Jem'Hadar are the most brutal and efficient soldiers I've >>> ever encountered. They don't care about the conventions of war, or >>> protecting civilians. They will not limit themselves to military >>> targets. They'll be waging the kind of war Earth hasn't seen since the >>> founding of the Federation. >>> >>>Sounds like the Imperials. :) More proof that the Federation doesn't know >>how >>>to wage a ground war. >> >>How did you get "doesn't know how to wage a ground war" from the quote? > >The Jem'Hadar tactics shown in "Rocks and Shoals" consist of "running really >fast through a canyon at the target." The Federation thinks this is brutal and >efficient? Give me a break. You idiot. The Vorta had arranged that entire ambush. One can hardly be brutal and efficient when one's enemies and leaders conspire. > >>>SUSCEPTIBILITY OF EARTH'S POWER GRID TO SABOTAGE >>> >>>Now here's a kicker. One of the key plot points of this episode is that >>Earth's >>>power grid -- ALL of it -- is totally knocked offline by a Dominion >>saboteur. >> >>When did a number Starfleet officers attempting a coup shapeshift into a >>single Dominion saboteur? > >Odo, Sisko, the President of the Federation, etc. were all perfectly willing to >believe it was a Dominion saboteur. It wasn't, but they considered that the most >logical explanation, indicating it ISN'T impossible. Their shock suggests that it is believed impossible, but considered more likely than an attempted coup by Starfleet members. > >>> ODO: Take out the power relays and you neutralize sensors, tranporters, >>> surface-based defense installations... >>> >>> SISKO: In other words, Earth is defenseless. >>> >>> LEYTON: If the Dominion attacks now... we don't stand a chance. >>> >>> >>>Wow, holy shit! A saboteur can make an entire planet defenseless? There's a >>>single point of failure for electricity over an entire planet, the crown >>jewel >>>of the Federation at that? >> >>Did you forget that Federation technology isn't based on simple electricity? > >And that excuses a single point of failure how? What single point of failure? It was a systemwide "virus", as you yourself suggested. > >>>Also, you'll note Odo says nothing about planetary shields... >> >>He also didn't mention phasers, photon torpedoes, et cetera. > >"Surface-based defense installations." And these could not be shielding stations? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 23:44:10 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: -------- On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:45:33 -0500, "Guardian 2000" wrote: >> Do you have something to say about the evidence presented or is that all? > > >What it means, dumbass, is that you're trying to paint Odo and the Founders >in general as having some abnormal weakness by "sleeping" heavily, when in >fact they simply sleep as heavily as a lot of humans do. I am? Actually, Scoot, if you'd take off your paranoia goggles for long enough to read the original post, all I said was that they were unable to detect anything while they were regenerating. no more, no less. >>>>Also, is anyone else disturbed that the station's chief of security can't >>>>prevent a break-in to his own room? "Starfleet Security" is an oxymoron. >>> >>>1. Odo is not Starfleet. >> >>He was chief of security on a joint Starfleet/Bajoran station. Sisko >thought he >>was great and took him all over the place. He was brought into top-level >>Starfleet security briefings (which you'd know if you'd actually watched >this >>episode). > >Odo is not Starfleet. You obviously missed that simple point. Right, as if this somehow makes him inferior. Get a clue. >>If anything, he's better than most Starfleet security. > >Proof? See my FIRST response to this question. >>>2. Dax is a computer whiz . . . and Starfleet . . .and, altogether, a few >>>hundred years old. >> >>1. Prove Dax is a computer whiz. > >She sat down in front of a 21st Century computer and very quickly learned to >operate it. She was able to implant her identity into the system, able to >set up a net broadcast that overrode government lockouts, et cetera. >("Past Tense, Pt. I" and "Past Tense, Pt. II"[DS9]) With the help of a high-powered corporate friend, of course, the same one who arranged for her to get an ID and did innumerable other favors she couldn't do on her own... something you completely forgot to mention. Wonder why we always accuse you of misrepresenting the evidence? >>2. So what if she's "Starfleet?" And old? Odo is still the chief of >security on >>DS9. If all it takes to crack the best security in the galaxy is being a >>"computer whiz" then my claims of vulnerability to slicers is even more >true. > >She is a Starfleet officer . . . she's encountered various forms of computer >security measures over the course of her career. So Odo is powerless to stop anyone who's served in a military from doing whatever they want? Wow, that says a lot for security technology in the 24th century. >She knows how the station's systems work, and she's got the knowledge, >training, and experience to know how to circumvent them. You obviously know zero about computer technology. I've worked extensively on Solaris-based machines -- that does not mean I could sit down at Sun's corporate headquarters and read the CEO's e-mail, nor should it. >Besides, we've seen Starfleet vessels that have locks which can be >overridden by appropriate command authorization ("Schisms"[TNG] and >"Violations"[TNG]), so she may not even have used her expert skills, >assuming such protocols were in place at DS9. So Odo is unable to change his security settings to disable Dax's entrance? Wow, hell of a security chief. >>>> NOG: It's an elite squad of cadets at the Academy. You know -- the best >>>> of the best. They get special classes, simulated missions, off-campus >>>> training sessions, all kinds of things! >>>> >>>>Telling. Starfleet Academy affords simulated missions only to a small >>>number of >>>>its cadets, and apparently field trips are a luxury in 24th-century >Earth. >>>>Judging by this, most learning in Starfleet Academy is done in the >>>classroom >>>>rather than the field. >>> >>>Do not think that because Red Squad gets simulated missions, others do >not. >> >>That's exactly what Nog said. Otherwise, what would be the point of >bringing it >>up? > >You're performing the fallacy of denying the antecedent. > >Here, let me draw it out for you so you can understand: > >If p then q >if not-p then not-q > >Or, your version: > >If Red Squad, then Simulated Missions >If not Red Squad, then not Simulated Missions. You are so stupid. It isn't "p -> q" it's "p <-> q" and so not p DOES mean not q. Jesus, take a real logic course instead of your dumbed-down philosophy major bullshit. That's the whole point of Nog asking to get into Red Squad. >>>Wesley Crusher had a simulated situation before he was even in the academy >>>(the "psych test" that all must face, according to "Coming of Age"[TNG]), >> >>Suddenly a "psych test" == regular simulated missions? > > >It is a simulated situation, proving that such are commonly used. It doesn't prove they're commonly used, it proves they're used once upon entrance. Taken with Nog's quote, this appears to be one of the only times, whereas Red Squad gets simulated missions regularly. >>>and I trust you have heard of the Kobayashi Maru. >> >>Don't think I've heard of it being used in Kirk's day; Nog would seem to >>indicate that it isn't. > >How would Nog know? He hasn't advanced that far. So Starfleet Academy is keeping their graduation requirements secret? He can't talk to an upper-level student or read a history book? Wow, Starfleet's "Information Gestapo" is even more powerful than I thought. Thanks for proving that. Further, we've STILL never heard of it used in the 24th century, and the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that if you want to override Nog/Sisko (who never disagrees with Nog). >>>Further, "field trips" are hardly unknown. >> >>Your examples are all TOS-era. Nog points out quite clearly that this has >>changed in the past century. > > >Nog points out no such thing, unless you're going to continue to argue off >of a fallacy. See above. Your university, if you even attend one, should force you to attend a real symbolic logic class so you'll stop making these kind of moronic mistakes. >>>>You heard it. Starfleet has civilian families "all over" the Federation, >>>>confirming Starfleet's bizarre and immoral policy of placing these people >>>in >>>>harm's way even though they wear no uniform and took no oath. >>> >>>1. Ever heard of "West Germany"? >> >>Why yes. Now make an argument. > >I did, you were simply too stupid to realize it. So your argument is that the mid-20th-century United States is identical to the Federation in all ways? Wow, that argument sucks. If you'd like to make a different one, go ahead. >>>2. Your sentence is structured in such a way as to imply that Starfleet >>>forces families to stay in harm's way. You're right, they wear no >>>uniform, and as far as we know, they took no oath. But they were not >>>'placed' there . . . they went of their own volition. >> >>Yet the possibility of allowing these people to return home in the middle >of a >>war was never discussed; > >Because it had probably been discussed at the beginning of the war. This was never shown. >>Starfleet instead chose to force them to submit to >>blood-tests and other invasions of privacy whether they liked it or not. >Joseph >>Sisko didn't seem to be doing anything "of his own volition." > >You moron, Joseph Sisko was on Earth. Yeah, undergoing the same procedure as every family on every starbase, installation, and starship. Watch the episode next time for comprehension, you little twat. >>>>WIDE-BEAM PHASER POWER >>>> >>>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9Homefront-odotest.avi >>>> >>>> SISKO: Activate the phaser. >>>> >>>> (Wide-beam phaser sprays the whole room for a few seconds, then a plant >>>> turns into Odo.) >>>> >>>> SISKO: That's enough. How do you feel? >>>> >>>> ODO: Well, that time I definitely experienced discomfort. >>>> >>>> SISKO: What was the setting? >>>> >>>> BENTEEN: 3.1. If we set the phasers at 3.4, we should be able to stun >>>> any Changeling we hit and force them back into a gelatinous state. >>>> >>>> ODO: I'd push it to 3.5, just to be on the safe side. But if you want to >>>> >>>> do any more tests, you'll have to get another guinea pig. I've been >>>> shocked quite enough for one day. >>>> >>>> SISKO: 3.5 it is. I want these units installed in every room in >>>> Starfleet and Federation Headquarters. Then start working on the orbital >>>> stations. >>>> >>>> BENTEEN: I'll have them in place by tomorrow night. I want to thank you, >>>> Captain. >>>> >>>> SISKO: Thank me? For what? >>>> >>>> BENTEEN: For convincing the President to implement these security >>>> measures. Feels like we're finally on the right track. >>>> >>>> ODO: Think she would have thanked me, as well. I'm the one who got shot >>>> 13 times today. >>>> >>>>Note that a phaser setting of 3.1 on wide-beam isn't enough to even >damage >>>>furniture, much less actually hurt anyone. Odo was shot 13 times with a >>>>wide-beam phaser at various settings and was a little annoyed, but not >>>hurt. >>>>This confirms what we've always known -- wide-beam phasers are weak, and >>>using >>>>them to mow down soldiers is totally impossible. >>> >>>Setting 3.4 was to be used for stunning changelings. >> >>Thank you. I understand that. You have not actually answered any of the >points >>that I made in the paragraph below. >> >>[snip] > > >Hey, aren't you the one who likes to use the phrase "Lack of Argument = >Admission of Defeat"? Yes, and it applies marvellously here to you. >>>In any case, I note the fact that you ignored the idea that dozens, if not >>>hundreds, of those never-before-seen (and never-before-needed) devices >were >>>installed in about 36 hours. >> >>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9Homefront-argueprez.avi >> >> PRESDIENT: Phaser sweeps? >> >> SISKO: They've proven very effective on Deep Space Nine. >> >>They've already been in use on DS9 for some time. > >Those were manual phaser sweeps. Guys with guns. Proof? >> I can plug in 100 lamps by myself in a day if I work really slow. Why >should I be surprised they can >do the same thing? > >They built the new "lamps" and installed them in no time flat. Proof they had to BUILD these "lamps?" >>>>EARTH IS PRONE FOR INVASION >>>> >>>>Okay, now the big stuff. The crux of this episode is that the Federation >is >>>>totally unprepared for a war which involves assault on Earth. Luckily for >>>them, >>>>warp travel makes this hard to do on short notice, but we know this isn't >>>the >>>>case with hyperdrive. >>> >>>The Borg (as well as the Enterprise-D) made it from the most distant >>>Federation colony to Earth in less than a week (I think I'd worked it out >to >>>three days, but I'll have to find the tape and do the math again). >> >>Uh, relevance? > >While your invasion fleet is sitting around mapping the place, we're getting >ready. Who the fuck is talking about mapping the galaxy? What does this have to do with anything I said? Scott, you are so dumb you make Anton Polinger look like the authority he claims to be. I'm surprised there's enough electricity in your brain to keep you breathing. >>>>This scene is very telling coupled with the one above. To do anything, >>>Starfleet >>>>ultimately needs the President's approval, but Leyton makes it quite >clear >>>that >>>>this dude is unable to handle himself with a war. As we have no evidence >>>that >>>>he's not the President anymore, we can only assume that it'll be Mister >>>"Don't >>>>Make Waves" at the helm come Imperial invasion time. >>> >>>The President was obviously willing to lead his people in a bloody war. >> >>Really? That's not what HE said. Perhaps you'd like to quote us some >dialogue >>where he says anything like that. In fact, he indicates his dogged >UNwillingness >>to upset the populace or fight any kind of war. > >You surmise that he is still the President . . . and there was a war. >Either he stepped down, or he led the people in war. He could have unwillingly done so. In fact, his statements indicate that's exactly what happened. Further, you've never really answered the central point: that the Federation leadership will sacrifice security for perceived comfort, even if it means people dying. >>>> SISKO: The Jem'Hadar are the most brutal and efficient soldiers I've >>>> ever encountered. They don't care about the conventions of war, or >>>> protecting civilians. They will not limit themselves to military >>>> targets. They'll be waging the kind of war Earth hasn't seen since the >>>> founding of the Federation. >>>> >>>>Sounds like the Imperials. :) More proof that the Federation doesn't >know >>>how >>>>to wage a ground war. >>> >>>How did you get "doesn't know how to wage a ground war" from the quote? >> >>The Jem'Hadar tactics shown in "Rocks and Shoals" consist of "running >really >>fast through a canyon at the target." The Federation thinks this is brutal >and >>efficient? Give me a break. > >You idiot. The Vorta had arranged that entire ambush. One can hardly be >brutal and efficient when one's enemies and leaders conspire. The First still has authority over how to make his men proceed -- and these battle tactics were identical to those seen elsewhere. >>>>SUSCEPTIBILITY OF EARTH'S POWER GRID TO SABOTAGE >>>> >>>>Now here's a kicker. One of the key plot points of this episode is that >>>Earth's >>>>power grid -- ALL of it -- is totally knocked offline by a Dominion >>>saboteur. >>> >>>When did a number Starfleet officers attempting a coup shapeshift into a >>>single Dominion saboteur? >> >>Odo, Sisko, the President of the Federation, etc. were all perfectly >willing to >>believe it was a Dominion saboteur. It wasn't, but they considered that the >most >>logical explanation, indicating it ISN'T impossible. > >Their shock suggests that it is believed impossible, but considered more >likely than an attempted coup by Starfleet members. There was no shock. You snipped the part where Odo/Leyton/Sisko all immediately conclude "sabotage" as soon as they found out what happens. Not shocked at all. >>>> ODO: Take out the power relays and you neutralize sensors, tranporters, >>>> surface-based defense installations... >>>> >>>> SISKO: In other words, Earth is defenseless. >>>> >>>> LEYTON: If the Dominion attacks now... we don't stand a chance. >>>> >>>> >>>>Wow, holy shit! A saboteur can make an entire planet defenseless? There's >a >>>>single point of failure for electricity over an entire planet, the crown >>>jewel >>>>of the Federation at that? >>> >>>Did you forget that Federation technology isn't based on simple >electricity? >> >>And that excuses a single point of failure how? > >What single point of failure? It was a systemwide "virus", as you yourself >suggested. The kids went in to one building, put a virus on one computer, and from there, the whole system failed. That's called a "single point of failure" and would be prevented with redundant systems UNCONNECTED to one another, as any non-brain-dead network engineer in the 21st century could tell you. >>>>Also, you'll note Odo says nothing about planetary shields... >>> >>>He also didn't mention phasers, photon torpedoes, et cetera. >> >>"Surface-based defense installations." > >And these could not be shielding stations? Nope. -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DMZ" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 01:51:02 +0100 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: <996454262.21574.0.nnrp-10.3e31960d@news.demon.co.uk> -------- "Kynes" wrote in message news:yJpkO4nGawGUjXQcrJVdrYyoFNKN@4ax.com... > You obviously know zero about computer technology. I've worked extensively on > Solaris-based machines -- that does not mean I could sit down at Sun's corporate > headquarters and read the CEO's e-mail, nor should it. You have? What do you do? In employment I tend to program exclusively on Solaris systems. DMZ --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:02:08 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: -------- On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 01:51:02 +0100, "DMZ" wrote: >> You obviously know zero about computer technology. I've worked extensively on >> Solaris-based machines -- that does not mean I could sit down at Sun's corporate >> headquarters and read the CEO's e-mail, nor should it. > > >You have? What do you do? In employment I tend to program exclusively on Solaris >systems. Well, all of the CS servers at school run on Solaris (or most of them, anyway -- all the ones I have an account on. :) so I end up spending a lot of time working on them for projects related to classes and other stuff. Ada/Java/C/C++ writing and debugging and the like, as well as LaTeX formatting of homework for some of my crazier professors. :) -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Guardian 2000" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 03:31:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: <9k35ku$2963f$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de> -------- Kynes wrote in message ... >On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:45:33 -0500, "Guardian 2000" wrote: > >>> Do you have something to say about the evidence presented or is that all? >> >> >>What it means, dumbass, is that you're trying to paint Odo and the Founders >>in general as having some abnormal weakness by "sleeping" heavily, when in >>fact they simply sleep as heavily as a lot of humans do. > >I am? Actually, Scoot, if you'd take off your paranoia goggles for long enough >to read the original post, all I said was that they were unable to detect >anything while they were regenerating. no more, no less. They may be able to detect things while regenerating. We simply do not know the threshold. > >>>>>Also, is anyone else disturbed that the station's chief of security can't >>>>>prevent a break-in to his own room? "Starfleet Security" is an oxymoron. >>>> >>>>1. Odo is not Starfleet. >>> >>>He was chief of security on a joint Starfleet/Bajoran station. Sisko >>thought he >>>was great and took him all over the place. He was brought into top-level >>>Starfleet security briefings (which you'd know if you'd actually watched >>this >>>episode). >> >>Odo is not Starfleet. You obviously missed that simple point. > >Right, as if this somehow makes him inferior. Get a clue. Your response was indicative of one who missed the simple point that he is not Starfleet. > >>>If anything, he's better than most Starfleet security. >> >>Proof? > >See my FIRST response to this question. Yeah, I did. I say again: Proof? > >>>>2. Dax is a computer whiz . . . and Starfleet . . .and, altogether, a few >>>>hundred years old. >>> >>>1. Prove Dax is a computer whiz. >> >>She sat down in front of a 21st Century computer and very quickly learned to >>operate it. She was able to implant her identity into the system, able to >>set up a net broadcast that overrode government lockouts, et cetera. >>("Past Tense, Pt. I" and "Past Tense, Pt. II"[DS9]) > >With the help of a high-powered corporate friend, of course, All he did was give her access to his machine. > the same one who arranged for her to get an ID Bullshit, lying whore. She did that on her own, all he did was allow her to send it to his office when she asked if that was okay. > and did innumerable other favors she couldn't do on her own... Such as? > something you completely forgot to mention. Because it didn't happen that way. >Wonder why we always accuse you of misrepresenting the evidence? Because you don't know what the evidence was to begin with. > >>>2. So what if she's "Starfleet?" And old? Odo is still the chief of >>security on >>>DS9. If all it takes to crack the best security in the galaxy is being a >>>"computer whiz" then my claims of vulnerability to slicers is even more >>true. >> >>She is a Starfleet officer . . . she's encountered various forms of computer >>security measures over the course of her career. > >So Odo is powerless to stop anyone who's served in a military from doing >whatever they want? Wow, that says a lot for security technology in the 24th >century. Once again, you missed the point entirely. > >>She knows how the station's systems work, and she's got the knowledge, >>training, and experience to know how to circumvent them. > >You obviously know zero about computer technology. I've worked extensively on >Solaris-based machines -- that does not mean I could sit down at Sun's corporate >headquarters and read the CEO's e-mail, nor should it. However, if you've played with enough various systems, the workings of yet another shouldn't be all that difficult to pick up. Besides which, she's operated completely alien computers . . . older human-based machines would be old hat, since she's been working with them for years. >>Besides, we've seen Starfleet vessels that have locks which can be >>overridden by appropriate command authorization ("Schisms"[TNG] and >>"Violations"[TNG]), so she may not even have used her expert skills, >>assuming such protocols were in place at DS9. > >So Odo is unable to change his security settings to disable Dax's entrance? Wow, >hell of a security chief. If he did, then she always had the other recourse. > >>>>> NOG: It's an elite squad of cadets at the Academy. You know -- the best >>>>> of the best. They get special classes, simulated missions, off-campus >>>>> training sessions, all kinds of things! >>>>> >>>>>Telling. Starfleet Academy affords simulated missions only to a small >>>>number of >>>>>its cadets, and apparently field trips are a luxury in 24th-century >>Earth. >>>>>Judging by this, most learning in Starfleet Academy is done in the >>>>classroom >>>>>rather than the field. >>>> >>>>Do not think that because Red Squad gets simulated missions, others do >>not. >>> >>>That's exactly what Nog said. Otherwise, what would be the point of >>bringing it >>>up? >> >>You're performing the fallacy of denying the antecedent. >> >>Here, let me draw it out for you so you can understand: >> >>If p then q >>if not-p then not-q >> >>Or, your version: >> >>If Red Squad, then Simulated Missions >>If not Red Squad, then not Simulated Missions. > >You are so stupid. It isn't "p -> q" it's "p <-> q" and so not p DOES mean not >q. You are a fucking idiot, and even when this is pointed out to you, your fucking idiocy only increases. You have, apparently, attempted to posit material equivalence (kind of depends on what your peculiar symbolization represents). Not only is this stupid because of the fact that simulated missions have *already been shown* to occur *outside* of Red Squad, but also because it demonstrates that you are assuming the conclusion you seek to prove. > Jesus, take a real logic course instead of your dumbed-down philosophy major >bullshit. That's the whole point of Nog asking to get into Red Squad. Obviously, you learned jack shit from your "real logic course". > >>>>Wesley Crusher had a simulated situation before he was even in the academy >>>>(the "psych test" that all must face, according to "Coming of Age"[TNG]), >>> >>>Suddenly a "psych test" == regular simulated missions? >> >> >>It is a simulated situation, proving that such are commonly used. > >It doesn't prove they're commonly used, it proves they're used once upon >entrance. Given the number of applicants, I'd say it's pretty common. Remember, you're positing that only a select group of students get these simulated situations . . . in fact, everyone gets at least one. >Taken with Nog's quote, this appears to be one of the only times, . . . by your illogic . . . >whereas Red Squad gets simulated missions regularly. > >>>>and I trust you have heard of the Kobayashi Maru. >>> >>>Don't think I've heard of it being used in Kirk's day; Nog would seem to >>>indicate that it isn't. >> >>How would Nog know? He hasn't advanced that far. Hey, nice snipping. > >So Starfleet Academy is keeping their graduation requirements secret? He can't >talk to an upper-level student or read a history book? Wow, Starfleet's >"Information Gestapo" is even more powerful than I thought. Thanks for proving >that. No problem. > >Further, we've STILL never heard of it used in the 24th century, and the burden >of proof is on you to demonstrate that if you want to override Nog/Sisko (who >never disagrees with Nog). Not at all. You snipped the entire part where I point out why. > >>>>Further, "field trips" are hardly unknown. >>> >>>Your examples are all TOS-era. Nog points out quite clearly that this has >>>changed in the past century. >> >> >>Nog points out no such thing, unless you're going to continue to argue off >>of a fallacy. > >See above. Your university, if you even attend one, should force you to attend a >real symbolic logic class so you'll stop making these kind of moronic mistakes. It's your stupid mistake. Don't blame me for your gaping defects in logic. > >>>>>You heard it. Starfleet has civilian families "all over" the Federation, >>>>>confirming Starfleet's bizarre and immoral policy of placing these people >>>>in >>>>>harm's way even though they wear no uniform and took no oath. >>>> >>>>1. Ever heard of "West Germany"? >>> >>>Why yes. Now make an argument. >> >>I did, you were simply too stupid to realize it. > >So your argument is that the mid-20th-century United States is identical to the >Federation in all ways? Wow, that argument sucks. If you'd like to make a >different one, go ahead. Are you always this stupid, or do you reserve it for ASVS? > >>>>2. Your sentence is structured in such a way as to imply that Starfleet >>>>forces families to stay in harm's way. You're right, they wear no >>>>uniform, and as far as we know, they took no oath. But they were not >>>>'placed' there . . . they went of their own volition. >>> >>>Yet the possibility of allowing these people to return home in the middle >>of a >>>war was never discussed; >> >>Because it had probably been discussed at the beginning of the war. > >This was never shown. No shit. > >>>Starfleet instead chose to force them to submit to >>>blood-tests and other invasions of privacy whether they liked it or not. >>Joseph >>>Sisko didn't seem to be doing anything "of his own volition." >> >>You moron, Joseph Sisko was on Earth. > >Yeah, undergoing the same procedure as every family on every starbase, >installation, and starship. Watch the episode next time for comprehension, you >little twat. > You missed the whole point, fuckwit. You spoke of JS like he was out in the cosmos. >>>>Setting 3.4 was to be used for stunning changelings. >>> >>>Thank you. I understand that. You have not actually answered any of the >>points >>>that I made in the paragraph below. >>> >>>[snip] >> >> >>Hey, aren't you the one who likes to use the phrase "Lack of Argument = >>Admission of Defeat"? > >Yes, and it applies marvellously here to you. No, that would be you, since you snipped and promptly ignored everything I said. > >>>>In any case, I note the fact that you ignored the idea that dozens, if not >>>>hundreds, of those never-before-seen (and never-before-needed) devices >>were >>>>installed in about 36 hours. >>> >>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9Homefront-argueprez.avi >>> >>> PRESDIENT: Phaser sweeps? >>> >>> SISKO: They've proven very effective on Deep Space Nine. >>> >>>They've already been in use on DS9 for some time. >> >>Those were manual phaser sweeps. Guys with guns. > >Proof? "Way of the Warrior"[DS9] . . . the opening sequence is a Founder-hunt with Odo as bait. > >>> I can plug in 100 lamps by myself in a day if I work really slow. Why >>should I be surprised they can >do the same thing? >> >>They built the new "lamps" and installed them in no time flat. > >Proof they had to BUILD these "lamps?" It was a new design. > >>>>>EARTH IS PRONE FOR INVASION >>>>> >>>>>Okay, now the big stuff. The crux of this episode is that the Federation >>is >>>>>totally unprepared for a war which involves assault on Earth. Luckily for >>>>them, >>>>>warp travel makes this hard to do on short notice, but we know this isn't >>>>the >>>>>case with hyperdrive. >>>> >>>>The Borg (as well as the Enterprise-D) made it from the most distant >>>>Federation colony to Earth in less than a week (I think I'd worked it out >>to >>>>three days, but I'll have to find the tape and do the math again). >>> >>>Uh, relevance? >> >>While your invasion fleet is sitting around mapping the place, we're getting >>ready. > >Who the fuck is talking about mapping the galaxy? Uh, that would be me. You can't do jack without hyperspace maps, according to Warsies here and elsewhere. >What does this have to do with anything I said? Warning time, maybe? Can you even understand what these peculiar squiggly lines, known as "letters", represent? >Scott, you are so dumb you make Anton Polinger look like the >authority he claims to be. I'm surprised there's enough electricity in your >brain to keep you breathing. You miss a point completely, and then insult my intelligence. How normal for you! > >>>>>This scene is very telling coupled with the one above. To do anything, >>>>Starfleet >>>>>ultimately needs the President's approval, but Leyton makes it quite >>clear >>>>that >>>>>this dude is unable to handle himself with a war. As we have no evidence >>>>that >>>>>he's not the President anymore, we can only assume that it'll be Mister >>>>"Don't >>>>>Make Waves" at the helm come Imperial invasion time. >>>> >>>>The President was obviously willing to lead his people in a bloody war. >>> >>>Really? That's not what HE said. Perhaps you'd like to quote us some >>dialogue >>>where he says anything like that. In fact, he indicates his dogged >>UNwillingness >>>to upset the populace or fight any kind of war. >> >>You surmise that he is still the President . . . and there was a war. >>Either he stepped down, or he led the people in war. > >He could have unwillingly done so. In fact, his statements indicate that's >exactly what happened. So, Mr. "Don't Make Waves" made waves and won a war? >Further, you've never really answered the central point: >that the Federation leadership will sacrifice security for perceived comfort, >even if it means people dying. > No, you're missing the point, again. We were talking about Jaresh-Inyo, not Federation leadership in general. >>>>> SISKO: The Jem'Hadar are the most brutal and efficient soldiers I've >>>>> ever encountered. They don't care about the conventions of war, or >>>>> protecting civilians. They will not limit themselves to military >>>>> targets. They'll be waging the kind of war Earth hasn't seen since the >>>>> founding of the Federation. >>>>> >>>>>Sounds like the Imperials. :) More proof that the Federation doesn't >>know >>>>how >>>>>to wage a ground war. >>>> >>>>How did you get "doesn't know how to wage a ground war" from the quote? >>> >>>The Jem'Hadar tactics shown in "Rocks and Shoals" consist of "running >>really >>>fast through a canyon at the target." The Federation thinks this is brutal >>and >>>efficient? Give me a break. >> >>You idiot. The Vorta had arranged that entire ambush. One can hardly be >>brutal and efficient when one's enemies and leaders conspire. > >The First still has authority over how to make his men proceed And he, of course, was perfectly content and of sound mind, since there was absolutely no shortage of their liquid crack, was there? > -- and these >battle tactics were identical to those seen elsewhere. Really? Where? Maybe the first episode with Jem'Hadar, where they used cloaking fields to capture Sisko? >>>Odo, Sisko, the President of the Federation, etc. were all perfectly >>willing to >>>believe it was a Dominion saboteur. It wasn't, but they considered that the >>most >>>logical explanation, indicating it ISN'T impossible. >> >>Their shock suggests that it is believed impossible, but considered more >>likely than an attempted coup by Starfleet members. > >There was no shock. You snipped the part where Odo/Leyton/Sisko all immediately >conclude "sabotage" as soon as they found out what happens. Not shocked at all. How is it that you can take something so obvious and ignore it? > >>>>> ODO: Take out the power relays and you neutralize sensors, tranporters, >>>>> surface-based defense installations... >>>>> >>>>> SISKO: In other words, Earth is defenseless. >>>>> >>>>> LEYTON: If the Dominion attacks now... we don't stand a chance. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Wow, holy shit! A saboteur can make an entire planet defenseless? There's >>a >>>>>single point of failure for electricity over an entire planet, the crown >>>>jewel >>>>>of the Federation at that? >>>> >>>>Did you forget that Federation technology isn't based on simple >>electricity? >>> >>>And that excuses a single point of failure how? >> >>What single point of failure? It was a systemwide "virus", as you yourself >>suggested. > >The kids went in to one building, put a virus on one computer, and from there, >the whole system failed. Proof? You are, after all, making a surmise off of the report of Leyton, who was involved. Even the Starfleet backups were affected, and the operating systems of each relay had to be purged. You don't know how many "points of failure" there really were. >>>>>Also, you'll note Odo says nothing about planetary shields... >>>> >>>>He also didn't mention phasers, photon torpedoes, et cetera. >>> >>>"Surface-based defense installations." >> >>And these could not be shielding stations? > >Nope. Proof? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kynes Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:02:09 GMT Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: -------- On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 03:31:50 -0500, "Guardian 2000" wrote: >>>> Do you have something to say about the evidence presented or is that >all? >>> >>> >>>What it means, dumbass, is that you're trying to paint Odo and the >Founders >>>in general as having some abnormal weakness by "sleeping" heavily, when in >>>fact they simply sleep as heavily as a lot of humans do. >> >>I am? Actually, Scoot, if you'd take off your paranoia goggles for long >enough >>to read the original post, all I said was that they were unable to detect >>anything while they were regenerating. no more, no less. > >They may be able to detect things while regenerating. We simply do not know >the threshold. They may? Show proof of this or go home. There's only one piece of evidence in the round and it shows them having no detective capabilities while regenerating. If you want to show this isn't the case, provide your own evidence. >>>>>>Also, is anyone else disturbed that the station's chief of security >can't >>>>>>prevent a break-in to his own room? "Starfleet Security" is an >oxymoron. >>>>> >>>>>1. Odo is not Starfleet. >>>> >>>>He was chief of security on a joint Starfleet/Bajoran station. Sisko >>>thought he >>>>was great and took him all over the place. He was brought into top-level >>>>Starfleet security briefings (which you'd know if you'd actually watched >>>this >>>>episode). >>> >>>Odo is not Starfleet. You obviously missed that simple point. >> >>Right, as if this somehow makes him inferior. Get a clue. > >Your response was indicative of one who missed the simple point that he is >not Starfleet. I understand Odo is not Starfleet. I also understand how this impacts the discussion: "fuck all" >>>>If anything, he's better than most Starfleet security. >>> >>>Proof? >> >>See my FIRST response to this question. > >Yeah, I did. I say again: Proof? Ironically, you are still quoting the proof while asking for it. >> >>>>>2. Dax is a computer whiz . . . and Starfleet . . .and, altogether, a >few >>>>>hundred years old. >>>> >>>>1. Prove Dax is a computer whiz. >>> >>>She sat down in front of a 21st Century computer and very quickly learned >to >>>operate it. She was able to implant her identity into the system, able >to >>>set up a net broadcast that overrode government lockouts, et cetera. >>>("Past Tense, Pt. I" and "Past Tense, Pt. II"[DS9]) >> >>With the help of a high-powered corporate friend, of course, > >All he did was give her access to his machine. From startrek.com: "Separated from the others, Dax is found by a prominent businessman named Chris Brynner, who takes her to his office and helps her obtain the ID card necessary to exist in this society." Prove he only gave her access to his machine. >>Wonder why we always accuse you of misrepresenting the evidence? > >Because you don't know what the evidence was to begin with. Guess you'd better contact the Paramount webmasters and inform them their show isn't up to "Scottie Standard." >>>>2. So what if she's "Starfleet?" And old? Odo is still the chief of >>>security on >>>>DS9. If all it takes to crack the best security in the galaxy is being a >>>>"computer whiz" then my claims of vulnerability to slicers is even more >>>true. >>> >>>She is a Starfleet officer . . . she's encountered various forms of >computer >>>security measures over the course of her career. >> >>So Odo is powerless to stop anyone who's served in a military from doing >>whatever they want? Wow, that says a lot for security technology in the >24th >>century. > >Once again, you missed the point entirely. Nope, I got it just fine. Imperial infiltrators will have an easier time than I thought, since they'll all encounter "various forms of computer security measures" over the course of their careers. >>>She knows how the station's systems work, and she's got the knowledge, >>>training, and experience to know how to circumvent them. >> >>You obviously know zero about computer technology. I've worked extensively >on >>Solaris-based machines -- that does not mean I could sit down at Sun's >corporate >>headquarters and read the CEO's e-mail, nor should it. > >However, if you've played with enough various systems, the workings of yet >another shouldn't be all that difficult to pick up. That doesn't mean you should be able to break into them and override the Chief of Security, you numbnuts. Get a clue. I'm sure your idea of computer security is the Windows 95 password box, but real security measures aren't disabled by the "escape" key. >>>Besides, we've seen Starfleet vessels that have locks which can be >>>overridden by appropriate command authorization ("Schisms"[TNG] and >>>"Violations"[TNG]), so she may not even have used her expert skills, >>>assuming such protocols were in place at DS9. >> >>So Odo is unable to change his security settings to disable Dax's entrance? >Wow, >>hell of a security chief. > >If he did, then she always had the other recourse. Pity he didn't, making your argument irrelevant. >>>>>> NOG: It's an elite squad of cadets at the Academy. You know -- the >best >>>>>> of the best. They get special classes, simulated missions, off-campus >>>>>> training sessions, all kinds of things! >>>>>> >>>>>>Telling. Starfleet Academy affords simulated missions only to a small >>>>>number of >>>>>>its cadets, and apparently field trips are a luxury in 24th-century >>>Earth. >>>>>>Judging by this, most learning in Starfleet Academy is done in the >>>>>classroom >>>>>>rather than the field. >>>>> >>>>>Do not think that because Red Squad gets simulated missions, others do >>>not. >>>> >>>>That's exactly what Nog said. Otherwise, what would be the point of >>>bringing it >>>>up? >>> >>>You're performing the fallacy of denying the antecedent. >>> >>>Here, let me draw it out for you so you can understand: >>> >>>If p then q >>>if not-p then not-q >>> >>>Or, your version: >>> >>>If Red Squad, then Simulated Missions >>>If not Red Squad, then not Simulated Missions. >> >>You are so stupid. It isn't "p -> q" it's "p <-> q" and so not p DOES mean >not >>q. > >You are a fucking idiot, and even when this is pointed out to you, your >fucking idiocy only increases. > >You have, apparently, attempted to posit material equivalence (kind of >depends on what your peculiar symbolization represents). My "peculiar symbolization." Christ, it is impossible to try to reason with you. It's like talking to a monkey. I have to give you lessons on language, science, and symbolic logic before you even understand what I'm saying. Here's a crash course to correct your ignorance. Statements in the form "if x, then y" can be written as "x implies y" or "x -> y." Statements in the form "if and only if x, then y" can be written as "x <-> y", and the two have the following truth tables: x | y | x -> y | x <-> y | --------------------------------- T | T | T | T T | F | F | F F | T | T | F F | F | T | T Hope that's right. DMZ/Graeme/anyone, feel free to jump in and correct me if I've made a mistake. :) >>>>>Wesley Crusher had a simulated situation before he was even in the >academy >>>>>(the "psych test" that all must face, according to "Coming of >Age"[TNG]), >>>> >>>>Suddenly a "psych test" == regular simulated missions? >>> >>> >>>It is a simulated situation, proving that such are commonly used. >> >>It doesn't prove they're commonly used, it proves they're used once upon >>entrance. > >Given the number of applicants, I'd say it's pretty common. Per capita, the number is one. >>So Starfleet Academy is keeping their graduation requirements secret? He >can't >>talk to an upper-level student or read a history book? Wow, Starfleet's >>"Information Gestapo" is even more powerful than I thought. Thanks for >proving >>that. > >No problem. [snip rest] If this is the real state of the Federation you think is so great, then the Academy argument is irrelevant since the Federation is repulsive for other reasons. >>>>>1. Ever heard of "West Germany"? >>>> >>>>Why yes. Now make an argument. >>> >>>I did, you were simply too stupid to realize it. >> >>So your argument is that the mid-20th-century United States is identical to >the >>Federation in all ways? Wow, that argument sucks. If you'd like to make a >>different one, go ahead. > >Are you always this stupid, or do you reserve it for ASVS? So you have no argument? Roger. Concession accepted. Look up "ad hominem." >>>>>2. Your sentence is structured in such a way as to imply that Starfleet >>>>>forces families to stay in harm's way. You're right, they wear no >>>>>uniform, and as far as we know, they took no oath. But they were not >>>>>'placed' there . . . they went of their own volition. >>>> >>>>Yet the possibility of allowing these people to return home in the middle >>>of a >>>>war was never discussed; >>> >>>Because it had probably been discussed at the beginning of the war. >> >>This was never shown. > >No shit. By the rules, you lose. Thanks for playing our game. >>>>Starfleet instead chose to force them to submit to >>>>blood-tests and other invasions of privacy whether they liked it or not. >>>Joseph >>>>Sisko didn't seem to be doing anything "of his own volition." >>> >>>You moron, Joseph Sisko was on Earth. >> >>Yeah, undergoing the same procedure as every family on every starbase, >>installation, and starship. Watch the episode next time for comprehension, >you >>little twat. >> > >You missed the whole point, fuckwit. You spoke of JS like he was out in >the cosmos. No, I spoke of him like he was a family member of a Federation officer being forced to do things against his will, which is true. >>>>>In any case, I note the fact that you ignored the idea that dozens, if >not >>>>>hundreds, of those never-before-seen (and never-before-needed) devices >>>were >>>>>installed in about 36 hours. >>>> >>>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9Homefront-argueprez.avi >>>> >>>> PRESDIENT: Phaser sweeps? >>>> >>>> SISKO: They've proven very effective on Deep Space Nine. >>>> >>>>They've already been in use on DS9 for some time. >>> >>>Those were manual phaser sweeps. Guys with guns. >> >>Proof? > >"Way of the Warrior"[DS9] . . . the opening sequence is a Founder-hunt with >Odo as bait. Oh, I'm sorry, but I'll have to ask for evidence of that claim. >>>> I can plug in 100 lamps by myself in a day if I work really slow. Why >>>should I be surprised they can >do the same thing? >>> >>>They built the new "lamps" and installed them in no time flat. >> >>Proof they had to BUILD these "lamps?" > >It was a new design. Proof? >>>>>>EARTH IS PRONE FOR INVASION >>>>>> >>>>>>Okay, now the big stuff. The crux of this episode is that the >Federation >>>is >>>>>>totally unprepared for a war which involves assault on Earth. Luckily >for >>>>>them, >>>>>>warp travel makes this hard to do on short notice, but we know this >isn't >>>>>the >>>>>>case with hyperdrive. >>>>> >>>>>The Borg (as well as the Enterprise-D) made it from the most distant >>>>>Federation colony to Earth in less than a week (I think I'd worked it >out >>>to >>>>>three days, but I'll have to find the tape and do the math again). >>>> >>>>Uh, relevance? >>> >>>While your invasion fleet is sitting around mapping the place, we're >getting >>>ready. >> >>Who the fuck is talking about mapping the galaxy? > >Uh, that would be me. You can't do jack without hyperspace maps, according >to Warsies here and elsewhere. This is fundamentally irrelevant to what I'm saying. You are incapable of following the conversation. Once those maps are obtained (a month at worst), the Imperials can strike Earth whenever they want and Earth will be totally unprepared. >>What does this have to do with anything I said? > >Warning time, maybe? LOL! Like the Federation has the technology to detect hyperspace mapping. Go home, Scott. >>>>>>This scene is very telling coupled with the one above. To do anything, >>>>>Starfleet >>>>>>ultimately needs the President's approval, but Leyton makes it quite >>>clear >>>>>that >>>>>>this dude is unable to handle himself with a war. As we have no >evidence >>>>>that >>>>>>he's not the President anymore, we can only assume that it'll be Mister >>>>>"Don't >>>>>>Make Waves" at the helm come Imperial invasion time. >>>>> >>>>>The President was obviously willing to lead his people in a bloody war. >>>> >>>>Really? That's not what HE said. Perhaps you'd like to quote us some >>>dialogue >>>>where he says anything like that. In fact, he indicates his dogged >>>UNwillingness >>>>to upset the populace or fight any kind of war. >>> >>>You surmise that he is still the President . . . and there was a war. >>>Either he stepped down, or he led the people in war. >> >>He could have unwillingly done so. In fact, his statements indicate that's >>exactly what happened. > >So, Mr. "Don't Make Waves" made waves and won a war? No, the Prophets won a war. The Federation's inadequacy was forgiven by luck. >>Further, you've never really answered the central point: >>that the Federation leadership will sacrifice security for perceived >comfort, >>even if it means people dying. >> > >No, you're missing the point, again. We were talking about Jaresh-Inyo, >not Federation leadership in general. Gee, I guess Jaresh-Inyo isn't a Federation.. leader... wait.. a ... minute ... >>>>>> SISKO: The Jem'Hadar are the most brutal and efficient soldiers I've >>>>>> ever encountered. They don't care about the conventions of war, or >>>>>> protecting civilians. They will not limit themselves to military >>>>>> targets. They'll be waging the kind of war Earth hasn't seen since the >>>>>> founding of the Federation. >>>>>> >>>>>>Sounds like the Imperials. :) More proof that the Federation doesn't >>>know >>>>>how >>>>>>to wage a ground war. >>>>> >>>>>How did you get "doesn't know how to wage a ground war" from the quote? >>>> >>>>The Jem'Hadar tactics shown in "Rocks and Shoals" consist of "running >>>really >>>>fast through a canyon at the target." The Federation thinks this is >brutal >>>and >>>>efficient? Give me a break. >>> >>>You idiot. The Vorta had arranged that entire ambush. One can hardly >be >>>brutal and efficient when one's enemies and leaders conspire. >> >>The First still has authority over how to make his men proceed > >And he, of course, was perfectly content and of sound mind, since there was >absolutely no shortage of their liquid crack, was there? Yep, he was. >> -- and these >>battle tactics were identical to those seen elsewhere. > >Really? Where? Maybe the first episode with Jem'Hadar, where they used >cloaking fields to capture Sisko? Yeah, that's a good example. Run up in a pseudo-cloaking field and start shooting. Good try, but for Imperials with thermal goggles, that won't work. [non-response snipped] >>>>>Did you forget that Federation technology isn't based on simple >>>electricity? >>>> >>>>And that excuses a single point of failure how? >>> >>>What single point of failure? It was a systemwide "virus", as you >yourself >>>suggested. >> >>The kids went in to one building, put a virus on one computer, and from >there, >>the whole system failed. > >Proof? You are, after all, making a surmise off of the report of Leyton, >who was involved. No, I'm not. I'm developing my argument based on the report of one of the kiddies involved. >>>>>>Also, you'll note Odo says nothing about planetary shields... >>>>> >>>>>He also didn't mention phasers, photon torpedoes, et cetera. >>>> >>>>"Surface-based defense installations." >>> >>>And these could not be shielding stations? >> >>Nope. > > >Proof? Stop marginalizing me! Waaaah! -- LK! [ kynes@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ] "But I've never seen *anything* that's going to even have the clearly designed and hoped-for effect of running me out of these groups or debates." -- TOWNMNBS, Six Days Before The Final Solution ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Martichi@aol.com (SirNitram) Date: 30 Jul 2001 21:05:16 -0700 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: <1e5517e2.0107302005.681cd575@posting.google.com> -------- Kynes wrote in message news:... > On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 03:31:50 -0500, "Guardian 2000" wrote: > > >>>> Do you have something to say about the evidence presented or is that > all? > >>> > >>> > >>>What it means, dumbass, is that you're trying to paint Odo and the > Founders > >>>in general as having some abnormal weakness by "sleeping" heavily, when in > >>>fact they simply sleep as heavily as a lot of humans do. > >> > >>I am? Actually, Scoot, if you'd take off your paranoia goggles for long > enough > >>to read the original post, all I said was that they were unable to detect > >>anything while they were regenerating. no more, no less. > > > >They may be able to detect things while regenerating. We simply do not know > >the threshold. > > They may? Show proof of this or go home. There's only one piece of evidence in > the round and it shows them having no detective capabilities while regenerating. > If you want to show this isn't the case, provide your own evidence. > To not make the point less valid, it proves that they are damned heavy sleepers while regenerating. Some will go nuts on this, but c'mon, FURNITURE was moved and the bugger didn't wake. > >>>She knows how the station's systems work, and she's got the knowledge, > >>>training, and experience to know how to circumvent them. > >> > >>You obviously know zero about computer technology. I've worked extensively > on > >>Solaris-based machines -- that does not mean I could sit down at Sun's > corporate > >>headquarters and read the CEO's e-mail, nor should it. > > > >However, if you've played with enough various systems, the workings of yet > >another shouldn't be all that difficult to pick up. > > That doesn't mean you should be able to break into them and override the Chief > of Security, you numbnuts. Get a clue. I'm sure your idea of computer security > is the Windows 95 password box, but real security measures aren't disabled by > the "escape" key. > Now, now, don't be mean... He's poor, he can't afford nice, secure, Linux... Wait a moment.... > >>>>>>EARTH IS PRONE FOR INVASION > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Okay, now the big stuff. The crux of this episode is that the > Federation > is > >>>>>>totally unprepared for a war which involves assault on Earth. Luckily > for > them, > >>>>>>warp travel makes this hard to do on short notice, but we know this > isn't > the > >>>>>>case with hyperdrive. > >>>>> > >>>>>The Borg (as well as the Enterprise-D) made it from the most distant > >>>>>Federation colony to Earth in less than a week (I think I'd worked it > out > to > >>>>>three days, but I'll have to find the tape and do the math again). > >>>> > >>>>Uh, relevance? > >>> > >>>While your invasion fleet is sitting around mapping the place, we're > getting > >>>ready. > >> > >>Who the fuck is talking about mapping the galaxy? > > > >Uh, that would be me. You can't do jack without hyperspace maps, according > >to Warsies here and elsewhere. > > This is fundamentally irrelevant to what I'm saying. You are incapable of > following the conversation. Once those maps are obtained (a month at worst), the > Imperials can strike Earth whenever they want and Earth will be totally > unprepared. > You forgot a very important thing, Kynes. Assume they -can- track all this, for a moment. This is the Federation. Are they going to amass a defense fleet, or try and defend Earth? No. They're going to send a single ship over there for First Contact, welcome the Imperials and their odd looking ships in, invite them to have tea and cake..... And look fucking amazed when the lead Star Destroyer obliterates San Francisco from orbit in one volley. > >>>>>Did you forget that Federation technology isn't based on simple > electricity? > >>>> Actually, all the proof we've seen on the fact show that systems on the most advanced starships don't use standard electric. I saw some episode with jumper cables on some terraforming equipment, tomorrow I'll post the source. When I've had coffee. > >>>>And that excuses a single point of failure how? > >>> > >>>What single point of failure? It was a systemwide "virus", as you > yourself > >>>suggested. > >> > >>The kids went in to one building, put a virus on one computer, and from > there, > >>the whole system failed. > > > >Proof? You are, after all, making a surmise off of the report of Leyton, > >who was involved. > > No, I'm not. I'm developing my argument based on the report of one of the > kiddies involved. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Guardian 2000" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 06:41:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PDD] DS9's "Homefront" Message-ID: <9l0gs7$6tcs2$1@ID-82121.news.dfncis.de> -------- Kynes wrote in message ... >On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 03:31:50 -0500, "Guardian 2000" wrote: > >>>>> Do you have something to say about the evidence presented or is that >>all? >>>> >>>> >>>>What it means, dumbass, is that you're trying to paint Odo and the >>Founders >>>>in general as having some abnormal weakness by "sleeping" heavily, when in >>>>fact they simply sleep as heavily as a lot of humans do. >>> >>>I am? Actually, Scoot, if you'd take off your paranoia goggles for long >>enough >>>to read the original post, all I said was that they were unable to detect >>>anything while they were regenerating. no more, no less. >> >>They may be able to detect things while regenerating. We simply do not know >>the threshold. > >They may? Show proof of this or go home. There's only one piece of evidence in >the round and it shows them having no detective capabilities while regenerating. >If you want to show this isn't the case, provide your own evidence. You are claiming knowledge of that which you cannot know. I do not require evidence to point out this gaping defect in your logic. >>>>>If anything, he's better than most Starfleet security. >>>> >>>>Proof? >>> >>>See my FIRST response to this question. >> >>Yeah, I did. I say again: Proof? > >Ironically, you are still quoting the proof while asking for it. Your unwillingness (or inability) to provide proof noted. > >>> >>>>>>2. Dax is a computer whiz . . . and Starfleet . . .and, altogether, a >>few >>>>>>hundred years old. >>>>> >>>>>1. Prove Dax is a computer whiz. >>>> >>>>She sat down in front of a 21st Century computer and very quickly learned >>to >>>>operate it. She was able to implant her identity into the system, able >>to >>>>set up a net broadcast that overrode government lockouts, et cetera. >>>>("Past Tense, Pt. I" and "Past Tense, Pt. II"[DS9]) >>> >>>With the help of a high-powered corporate friend, of course, >> >>All he did was give her access to his machine. > >From startrek.com: "Separated from the others, Dax is found by a prominent >businessman named Chris Brynner, who takes her to his office and helps her >obtain the ID card necessary to exist in this society." Yes, he helped her fabulously . . . he gave her access to his machine and allowed her documents to be sent to his office. > >Prove he only gave her access to his machine. Go watch the episode. Prove that he did more. > >>>Wonder why we always accuse you of misrepresenting the evidence? >> >>Because you don't know what the evidence was to begin with. > >Guess you'd better contact the Paramount webmasters and inform them their show >isn't up to "Scottie Standard." Looks fine to me. You're the one who does not know what they mean. > >>>>>2. So what if she's "Starfleet?" And old? Odo is still the chief of >>>>security on >>>>>DS9. If all it takes to crack the best security in the galaxy is being a >>>>>"computer whiz" then my claims of vulnerability to slicers is even more >>>>true. >>>> >>>>She is a Starfleet officer . . . she's encountered various forms of >>computer >>>>security measures over the course of her career. >>> >>>So Odo is powerless to stop anyone who's served in a military from doing >>>whatever they want? Wow, that says a lot for security technology in the >>24th >>>century. >> >>Once again, you missed the point entirely. > >Nope, I got it just fine. Imperial infiltrators will have an easier time than I >thought, since they'll all encounter "various forms of computer security >measures" over the course of their careers. With hard work and diligence, I hope someday to become as remarkable a dumbass as you. You are extrapolating my comment beyond the region of fit. It's fine as a debate tactic, though meaningless when it comes down to fact. Go buy a clue. > >>>>She knows how the station's systems work, and she's got the knowledge, >>>>training, and experience to know how to circumvent them. >>> >>>You obviously know zero about computer technology. I've worked extensively >>on >>>Solaris-based machines -- that does not mean I could sit down at Sun's >>corporate >>>headquarters and read the CEO's e-mail, nor should it. >> >>However, if you've played with enough various systems, the workings of yet >>another shouldn't be all that difficult to pick up. > >That doesn't mean you should be able to break into them and override the Chief >of Security, you numbnuts. Nor did I say so. That's your straw man you're playing with, and I'll happily let you keep him. >>>>Besides, we've seen Starfleet vessels that have locks which can be >>>>overridden by appropriate command authorization ("Schisms"[TNG] and >>>>"Violations"[TNG]), so she may not even have used her expert skills, >>>>assuming such protocols were in place at DS9. >>> >>>So Odo is unable to change his security settings to disable Dax's entrance? >>Wow, >>>hell of a security chief. >> >>If he did, then she always had the other recourse. > >Pity he didn't, making your argument irrelevant. Proof? > >>>>>>> NOG: It's an elite squad of cadets at the Academy. You know -- the >>best >>>>>>> of the best. They get special classes, simulated missions, off-campus >>>>>>> training sessions, all kinds of things! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Telling. Starfleet Academy affords simulated missions only to a small >>>>>>number of >>>>>>>its cadets, and apparently field trips are a luxury in 24th-century >>>>Earth. >>>>>>>Judging by this, most learning in Starfleet Academy is done in the >>>>>>classroom >>>>>>>rather than the field. >>>>>> >>>>>>Do not think that because Red Squad gets simulated missions, others do >>>>not. >>>>> >>>>>That's exactly what Nog said. Otherwise, what would be the point of >>>>bringing it >>>>>up? >>>> >>>>You're performing the fallacy of denying the antecedent. >>>> >>>>Here, let me draw it out for you so you can understand: >>>> >>>>If p then q >>>>if not-p then not-q >>>> >>>>Or, your version: >>>> >>>>If Red Squad, then Simulated Missions >>>>If not Red Squad, then not Simulated Missions. >>> >>>You are so stupid. It isn't "p -> q" it's "p <-> q" and so not p DOES mean >>not >>>q. >> >>You are a fucking idiot, and even when this is pointed out to you, your >>fucking idiocy only increases. >> >>You have, apparently, attempted to posit material equivalence (kind of >>depends on what your peculiar symbolization represents). > >My "peculiar symbolization." > >Christ, it is impossible to try to reason with you. It's like talking to a >monkey. I have to give you lessons on language, science, and symbolic logic >before you even understand what I'm saying. What a fascinating revisionist history you have written. Praytell, when did these lessons take place? >Here's a crash course to correct your ignorance. Riiiight. > >Statements in the form "if x, then y" can be written as "x implies y" or "x -> >y." Statements in the form "if and only if x, then y" can be written as "x <-> >y", and the two have the following truth tables: > >x | y | x -> y | x <-> y | >--------------------------------- >T | T | T | T >T | F | F | F >F | T | T | F >F | F | T | T > > >Hope that's right. DMZ/Graeme/anyone, feel free to jump in and correct me if >I've made a mistake. :) In my experience, material equivalence is most often symbolized by a triple-bar in common symbolic logic. I have read up on a variety of symbolic logic systems, and some of them use your symbolization to refer to other things. The point of the matter is that your argument holds iff (if and only if) no contrary examples exist. Contrary examples exist. Therefore your argument does not hold. > >>>>>>Wesley Crusher had a simulated situation before he was even in the >>academy >>>>>>(the "psych test" that all must face, according to "Coming of >>Age"[TNG]), >>>>> >>>>>Suddenly a "psych test" == regular simulated missions? >>>> >>>> >>>>It is a simulated situation, proving that such are commonly used. >>> >>>It doesn't prove they're commonly used, it proves they're used once upon >>>entrance. >> >>Given the number of applicants, I'd say it's pretty common. > >Per capita, the number is one. Thus, it holds for every applicant (accepted or not) that simulated situations occur, and occur outside of Red Squad. Therefore, your attempted logical argument in reference to Nog's statements is still inaccurate. > >>>So Starfleet Academy is keeping their graduation requirements secret? He >>can't >>>talk to an upper-level student or read a history book? Wow, Starfleet's >>>"Information Gestapo" is even more powerful than I thought. Thanks for >>proving >>>that. >> >>No problem. > >[snip rest] > >If this is the real state of the Federation you think is so great, then the >Academy argument is irrelevant since the Federation is repulsive for other >reasons. Such as? > >>>>>>1. Ever heard of "West Germany"? >>>>> >>>>>Why yes. Now make an argument. >>>> >>>>I did, you were simply too stupid to realize it. >>> >>>So your argument is that the mid-20th-century United States is identical to >>the >>>Federation in all ways? Wow, that argument sucks. If you'd like to make a >>>different one, go ahead. >> >>Are you always this stupid, or do you reserve it for ASVS? > >So you have no argument? Roger. Concession accepted. Look up "ad hominem." How does one respond with argument when no argument was offerred in the first place? Concession accepted. > >>>>>>2. Your sentence is structured in such a way as to imply that Starfleet >>>>>>forces families to stay in harm's way. You're right, they wear no >>>>>>uniform, and as far as we know, they took no oath. But they were not >>>>>>'placed' there . . . they went of their own volition. >>>>> >>>>>Yet the possibility of allowing these people to return home in the middle >>>>of a >>>>>war was never discussed; >>>> >>>>Because it had probably been discussed at the beginning of the war. >>> >>>This was never shown. >> >>No shit. > >By the rules, you lose. Thanks for playing our game. Actually, you lose, since you must prove that families are forced to stay in harm's way. > >>>>>Starfleet instead chose to force them to submit to >>>>>blood-tests and other invasions of privacy whether they liked it or not. >>>>Joseph >>>>>Sisko didn't seem to be doing anything "of his own volition." >>>> >>>>You moron, Joseph Sisko was on Earth. >>> >>>Yeah, undergoing the same procedure as every family on every starbase, >>>installation, and starship. Watch the episode next time for comprehension, >>you >>>little twat. >>> >> >>You missed the whole point, fuckwit. You spoke of JS like he was out in >>the cosmos. > >No, I spoke of him like he was a family member of a Federation officer being >forced to do things against his will, which is true. It was not because he was a family member. > >>>>>>In any case, I note the fact that you ignored the idea that dozens, if >>not >>>>>>hundreds, of those never-before-seen (and never-before-needed) devices >>>>were >>>>>>installed in about 36 hours. >>>>> >>>>>http://galactec.com/kynes/pdd/DS9Homefront-argueprez.avi >>>>> >>>>> PRESDIENT: Phaser sweeps? >>>>> >>>>> SISKO: They've proven very effective on Deep Space Nine. >>>>> >>>>>They've already been in use on DS9 for some time. >>>> >>>>Those were manual phaser sweeps. Guys with guns. >>> >>>Proof? >> >>"Way of the Warrior"[DS9] . . . the opening sequence is a Founder-hunt with >>Odo as bait. > >Oh, I'm sorry, but I'll have to ask for evidence of that claim. Source provided, and thus evidenciary requirement has been met. > >>>>> I can plug in 100 lamps by myself in a day if I work really slow. Why >>>>should I be surprised they can >do the same thing? >>>> >>>>They built the new "lamps" and installed them in no time flat. >>> >>>Proof they had to BUILD these "lamps?" >> >>It was a new design. > >Proof? Have you seen them before? Show me where. Also, explain to me why they'd have a system design on file for a previously unencountered threat. > >>>>>>>EARTH IS PRONE FOR INVASION >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Okay, now the big stuff. The crux of this episode is that the >>Federation >>>>is >>>>>>>totally unprepared for a war which involves assault on Earth. Luckily >>for >>>>>>them, >>>>>>>warp travel makes this hard to do on short notice, but we know this >>isn't >>>>>>the >>>>>>>case with hyperdrive. >>>>>> >>>>>>The Borg (as well as the Enterprise-D) made it from the most distant >>>>>>Federation colony to Earth in less than a week (I think I'd worked it >>out >>>>to >>>>>>three days, but I'll have to find the tape and do the math again). >>>>> >>>>>Uh, relevance? >>>> >>>>While your invasion fleet is sitting around mapping the place, we're >>getting >>>>ready. >>> >>>Who the fuck is talking about mapping the galaxy? >> >>Uh, that would be me. You can't do jack without hyperspace maps, according >>to Warsies here and elsewhere. > >This is fundamentally irrelevant to what I'm saying. You are incapable of >following the conversation. False, because it takes two to have a conversation, and if you'll read the above, you'd note that the last several quotings all refer to the exact same thing. >Once those maps are obtained (a month at >worst), Proof? > the >Imperials can strike Earth whenever they want and Earth will be totally >unprepared. Proof? > >>>What does this have to do with anything I said? >> >>Warning time, maybe? > >LOL! Like the Federation has the technology to detect hyperspace mapping. >Go >home, Scott. Funny, the impression I've received is that hyperspace mapping is a manual endeavour. What exactly do you think it involves? > >>>>>>>This scene is very telling coupled with the one above. To do anything, >>>>>>Starfleet >>>>>>>ultimately needs the President's approval, but Leyton makes it quite >>>>clear >>>>>>that >>>>>>>this dude is unable to handle himself with a war. As we have no >>evidence >>>>>>that >>>>>>>he's not the President anymore, we can only assume that it'll be Mister >>>>>>"Don't >>>>>>>Make Waves" at the helm come Imperial invasion time. >>>>>> >>>>>>The President was obviously willing to lead his people in a bloody war. >>>>> >>>>>Really? That's not what HE said. Perhaps you'd like to quote us some >>>>dialogue >>>>>where he says anything like that. In fact, he indicates his dogged >>>>UNwillingness >>>>>to upset the populace or fight any kind of war. >>>> >>>>You surmise that he is still the President . . . and there was a war. >>>>Either he stepped down, or he led the people in war. >>> >>>He could have unwillingly done so. In fact, his statements indicate that's >>>exactly what happened. >> >>So, Mr. "Don't Make Waves" made waves and won a war? > >No, the Prophets won a war. The Federation's inadequacy was forgiven by luck. The Prophets were helpful, but were not solely responsible. > >>>Further, you've never really answered the central point: >>>that the Federation leadership will sacrifice security for perceived >>comfort, >>>even if it means people dying. >>> >> >>No, you're missing the point, again. We were talking about Jaresh-Inyo, >>not Federation leadership in general. > >Gee, I guess Jaresh-Inyo isn't a Federation.. leader... > >wait.. a ... minute ... I see that the concepts of "specific" and "general" elude your profound understanding. >>> -- and these >>>battle tactics were identical to those seen elsewhere. >> >>Really? Where? Maybe the first episode with Jem'Hadar, where they used >>cloaking fields to capture Sisko? > >Yeah, that's a good example. Run up in a pseudo-cloaking field and start >shooting. Good try, but for Imperials with thermal goggles, that won't work. Proof that the cloak would be defeated by thermal sensors? >>>>>>Did you forget that Federation technology isn't based on simple >>>>electricity? >>>>> >>>>>And that excuses a single point of failure how? >>>> >>>>What single point of failure? It was a systemwide "virus", as you >>yourself >>>>suggested. >>> >>>The kids went in to one building, put a virus on one computer, and from >>there, >>>the whole system failed. >> >>Proof? You are, after all, making a surmise off of the report of Leyton, >>who was involved. > >No, I'm not. I'm developing my argument based on the report of one of the >kiddies involved. And what report was that? > >>>>>>>Also, you'll note Odo says nothing about planetary shields... >>>>>> >>>>>>He also didn't mention phasers, photon torpedoes, et cetera. >>>>> >>>>>"Surface-based defense installations." >>>> >>>>And these could not be shielding stations? >>> >>>Nope. >> >> >>Proof? > >Stop marginalizing me! Waaaah! Concession accepted.