---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) Date: 25 May 2002 20:48:20 -0700 Subject: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: <80ae86b7.0205251948.6e386cb2@posting.google.com> -------- Okay, what is this crap? 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? Boba Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just knocking him back? And where, oh where, were those 280 point-defence cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation spheres during the final battle? Sounds like someone heard Malcolm Reed claim 500 gigajoules for Enterprise's phase cannons and got jealous. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Durandal Date: 26 May 2002 03:56:51 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: <20020525225650437-0500@news.cis.dfn.de> -------- The voice in my head named DarkStar told me: > Okay, what is this crap? > > 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground > fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? Boba > Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just > knocking him back? And where, oh where, were those 280 point-defence > cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation spheres > during the final battle? I suggest talking to the doctorate holding theoretical astrophysicist himself, Dr. Curtis Saxton. > Sounds like someone heard Malcolm Reed claim 500 gigajoules for > Enterprise's phase cannons and got jealous. Sounds like yet another fucking dumbshit Trekkie. -- Damien Sorresso [AOL IM: durandal64] | [ICQ: 12183859] http://homepage.mac.com/durandal64 "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." -Jebediah Springfield ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Ambivalent DMZ Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 04:21:39 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- Durandal wrote in news:20020525225650437-0500 @news.cis.dfn.de: > The voice in my head named DarkStar told me: >> Okay, what is this crap? >> >> 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground >> fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? Boba >> Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just >> knocking him back? And where, oh where, were those 280 point-defence >> cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation spheres >> during the final battle? > > I suggest talking to the doctorate holding theoretical astrophysicist > himself, Dr. Curtis Saxton. Who is never http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html wrong. http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 You can't help but admire the way that some of the vs. debate claims have finally gone full circle and managed to get published as official material, though - a trick worthy of Machiavelli. There really ought to be a rule about this sort of thing. =) -- DMZ mhm33x4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kazuaki Shimazaki" Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 12:52:11 +0800 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message news:Xns921A368887607C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.78... > Who is never > > http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html > > wrong. > > http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 > http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 > > You can't help but admire the way that some of the vs. debate claims have > finally gone full circle and managed to get published as official material, > though - a trick worthy of Machiavelli. There really ought to be a rule > about this sort of thing. =) When he sees this, he's probably going to tell you that those stories are apparently not canon but official (since AFAIK only the films and their directly associated scripts and novels are canon and the Animated thing is also merely official) and must therefore be overriden by the inevitable consequences of Endor. A rationalization may be that the Rebels were kind enough to give them a shield, and they somehow got it set up before the asteroids all landed on them. You should forward this data to him in any case, even though his infallibility is not required for this exercise. The fact that it may be a vs debate claim does not mean it is inaccurate. What do you think happens to inaccurate claims in this salvage group, when even accurate claims are strafed on left and right before final acceptance? Your last sentence sounds just like a SBer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Ambivalent DMZ Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 16:30:36 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in news:acpps5$r5n3h$1 @ID-144261.news.dfncis.de: > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message > news:Xns921A368887607C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.78... > >> Who is never >> >> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html >> >> wrong. >> >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 >> >> You can't help but admire the way that some of the vs. debate claims > have >> finally gone full circle and managed to get published as official > material, >> though - a trick worthy of Machiavelli. There really ought to be a > rule >> about this sort of thing. =) > > When he sees this, he's probably going to tell you that those stories > are apparently not canon but official (since AFAIK only the films and > their directly associated scripts and novels are canon and the Animated > thing is also merely official) I was working under the assumption that the stories were official. However, since both are in fact films with scripts written by George Lucas, there remains the tantalizing possibility that they are canon. Not that it matters, of course. > and must therefore be overriden by the inevitable consequences of Endor. Facts come first, theories must fit the facts. Not the other way around. You must know this, Kaz. The consequences of Endor were not "inevitable", they were assumed, and you should know that official fact overrides pet theory. This is one area where the facts are so indisputably obvious that it shows the hypocrites of the group up nicely, though. > A rationalization may be that the > Rebels were kind enough to give them a shield, and they somehow got it > set up before the asteroids all landed on them. Asteroids? I think you mean something else. Rationalise away. Remember, though, that Dr. Saxton never did any calculations on this subject. He just assumed an apocalypse and made a theory to fit the assumption. It begins with what he admits to be "unknowns" and extrapolates effects from them. In fact, some of the only empirical data gathered was the maximum velocity of ejecta from the explosion. > You should forward this data to him in any case, even though his > infallibility is not required for this exercise. The fact that it may be > a vs debate claim does not mean it is inaccurate. What do you think > happens to inaccurate claims in this salvage group, when even accurate > claims are strafed on left and right before final acceptance? Let me get your logic straight - because accurate claims are criticised his claims must be accurate? I suppose you believe he died for all your sins, too. > Your last sentence sounds just like a SBer. I was thinking of something along the lines of a medal, or perhaps a small trophy. -- DMZ mhm33x4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rob.wn5" Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 17:43:23 +0100 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message news:Xns921AB21F3C86AC8H10N4O2@158.152.254.79... > "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in news:acpps5$r5n3h$1 > @ID-144261.news.dfncis.de: > > > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message > > news:Xns921A368887607C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.78... > > > >> Who is never > >> > >> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html > >> > >> wrong. > >> > >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 > >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 > >> > >> You can't help but admire the way that some of the vs. debate claims > > have > >> finally gone full circle and managed to get published as official > > material, > >> though - a trick worthy of Machiavelli. There really ought to be a > > rule > >> about this sort of thing. =) > > > > When he sees this, he's probably going to tell you that those stories > > are apparently not canon but official (since AFAIK only the films and > > their directly associated scripts and novels are canon and the Animated > > thing is also merely official) > > I was working under the assumption that the stories were official. However, > since both are in fact films with scripts written by George Lucas, there > remains the tantalizing possibility that they are canon. Not that it > matters, of course. Neither of them are mentioned in the Official Databanks on Starwars.com, I had to search all over to find anythig that contained them, and that article supports them as being before RotJ. However as you state, it doesn't matter. As it was only speculation on the part of Saxton. Of course the Rebels could have blown the pices of the DS2 into tiny fragments as they fell towards Endor, afterall we can see in the final shots of the MF rejoining the fleet, they are between the DS2 and Endor. So if the pieces didn't hit Endor then it just shows how fast the Rebels could target the incoming debris and the power of the weapons involved. :-) > > > Your last sentence sounds just like a SBer. > > I was thinking of something along the lines of a medal, or perhaps a small > trophy. Hands DMZ his 3 legged race medal from Primary school "Wear it with pride." Rob Wilson > > -- > DMZ mhm33x4 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 17:52:40 -0700 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "The Ambivalent 'I'm not a Trekkie' DMZ" > Facts come first, theories must fit the facts. Not the other way around. > You must know this, Kaz. The consequences of Endor were not "inevitable", > they were assumed, and you should know that official fact overrides pet > theory. This is one area where the facts are so indisputably obvious that > it shows the hypocrites of the group up nicely, though. Wedge's Gamble pg. 135: Several displays did provide notations that this plant or that animal had been made extinct on their native worlds by "outlaws and malcontents," and included among such beasts were Ewoks-- -- Display in Coruscant's Galactic Museum ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Ambivalent DMZ Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 01:02:51 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in news:uf30qqd6o9i38f@corp.supernews.com: > > "The Ambivalent 'I'm not a Trekkie' DMZ" > > >> Facts come first, theories must fit the facts. Not the other way >> around. You must know this, Kaz. The consequences of Endor were not >> "inevitable", they were assumed, and you should know that official >> fact overrides pet theory. This is one area where the facts are so >> indisputably obvious that it shows the hypocrites of the group up >> nicely, though. > > Wedge's Gamble > > pg. 135: Several displays did provide notations that this plant or > that animal had been made extinct on their native worlds by "outlaws > and malcontents," and included among such beasts were Ewoks-- > > -- Display in Coruscant's Galactic Museum We've been over this one before, too. Question - was Coruscant's Galactic Museum at that time impartial, or did it contain propaganda? Given that it was impartial, did it give a reason for the extinction of Ewoks? And finally, on a completely unrelated note, your SB post about Data was absolutely hilarious. =) -- DMZ mhm33x4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 19:50:25 -0700 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote > > Wedge's Gamble > > > > pg. 135: Several displays did provide notations that this plant or > > that animal had been made extinct on their native worlds by "outlaws > > and malcontents," and included among such beasts were Ewoks-- > > > > -- Display in Coruscant's Galactic Museum > > We've been over this one before, too. > > Question - was Coruscant's Galactic Museum at that time impartial, or did > it contain propaganda? That's not for us to judge though, remember? > Given that it was impartial, did it give a reason for the extinction of > Ewoks? Nope. Just that the Rebels were the cause. Blowing up the DS2 perhaps? > And finally, on a completely unrelated note, your SB post about Data was > absolutely hilarious. =) Agh, its so awful, ain't it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Ambivalent DMZ Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 03:00:32 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "Wayne Poe" wrote in news:uf37nji475su33@corp.supernews.com: > > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote > >> > Wedge's Gamble >> > >> > pg. 135: Several displays did provide notations that this plant or >> > that animal had been made extinct on their native worlds by >> > "outlaws and malcontents," and included among such beasts were >> > Ewoks-- >> > >> > -- Display in Coruscant's Galactic Museum >> >> We've been over this one before, too. >> >> Question - was Coruscant's Galactic Museum at that time impartial, or >> did it contain propaganda? > > That's not for us to judge though, remember? Since we've experienced the 'past' first hand, I'd say we're in an ideal situation to judge. First thing I was taught about history - always check the accuracy and bias of your sources. I could set up a Museum Of The Nazi Humanitarian Movement, for example. >> Given that it was impartial, did it give a reason for the extinction >> of Ewoks? > > Nope. Just that the Rebels were the cause. Blowing up the DS2 perhaps? Given the timeline that places the films *before* RotJ, to claim otherwise I'll either have to watch the films (which I'm *not* doing, okay?) or provide calcs that show that most fragments would have hit long before the Rebels had departed. The second should be trivial, but I've lost the original point now, haven't I? >> And finally, on a completely unrelated note, your SB post about Data >> was absolutely hilarious. =) > > Agh, its so awful, ain't it? CGI would be a *good* thing. -- DMZ mhm33x4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalton Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 00:57:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: <3CF06B3E.450FDA6E@daltonator.net> -------- The Ambivalent DMZ wrote: > > Durandal wrote in news:20020525225650437-0500 > @news.cis.dfn.de: > > > The voice in my head named DarkStar told me: > >> Okay, what is this crap? > >> > >> 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground > >> fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? Boba > >> Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just > >> knocking him back? And where, oh where, were those 280 point-defence > >> cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation spheres > >> during the final battle? > > > > I suggest talking to the doctorate holding theoretical astrophysicist > > himself, Dr. Curtis Saxton. > > Who is never > > http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html > > wrong. > > http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 > http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 Hey, nice strawman. Superb. > You can't help but admire the way that some of the vs. debate claims have > finally gone full circle and managed to get published as official material, > though - a trick worthy of Machiavelli. There really ought to be a rule > about this sort of thing. =) > > -- > DMZ mhm33x4 > > -- Rob "Roby" Dalton rob@daltonator.net "Watts and joules are interchangeable." http://www.galactec.com/timothy/index.php3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Date: 26 May 2002 06:06:07 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- ..and then The Ambivalent DMZ said: > Who is never > > http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html > > wrong. > > http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 > http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 > > You can't help but admire the way that some of the vs. debate claims > have finally gone full circle and managed to get published as official > material, though - a trick worthy of Machiavelli. There really ought to > be a rule about this sort of thing. =) I wish I had a doctorate so people would just accept everything I said regardless of how stupid it sounds. -- / \ _ \ / _ \ \ __ / / _____________________________\__\ / \ /__/_____________________________ \______________________________\_\\ //_/______________________________/ \ \_\\//_/ / \ / //\\ \ / \ _/ // \\ \_ / \________________________/__/_> <_\__\ _______________________/ _/ / \ / \ \_ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rob.wn5" Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 15:00:43 +0100 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message news:Xns921A368887607C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.78... > Durandal wrote in news:20020525225650437-0500 > @news.cis.dfn.de: > > > The voice in my head named DarkStar told me: > >> Okay, what is this crap? > >> > >> 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground > >> fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? Boba > >> Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just > >> knocking him back? And where, oh where, were those 280 point-defence > >> cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation spheres > >> during the final battle? > > > > I suggest talking to the doctorate holding theoretical astrophysicist > > himself, Dr. Curtis Saxton. > > Who is never > > http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html > > wrong. > > http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 > http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 Didn't both of these happen /before/ RotJ? Rob Wilson > -- > DMZ mhm33x4 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Ambivalent DMZ Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 16:02:51 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "rob.wn5" wrote in news:TU5I8.9347$Uk6.1509377 @news6-win.server.ntlworld.com: > > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message > news:Xns921A368887607C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.78... >> Durandal wrote in news:20020525225650437-0500 >> @news.cis.dfn.de: >> >> > The voice in my head named DarkStar told me: >> >> Okay, what is this crap? >> >> >> >> 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground >> >> fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? Boba >> >> Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just >> >> knocking him back? And where, oh where, were those 280 point-defence >> >> cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation spheres >> >> during the final battle? >> > >> > I suggest talking to the doctorate holding theoretical astrophysicist >> > himself, Dr. Curtis Saxton. >> >> Who is never >> >> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html >> >> wrong. >> >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 > > Didn't both of these happen /before/ RotJ? Nope - the plots of both films are explicitly set after RotJ. -- DMZ mhm33x4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rob.wn5" Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 17:34:38 +0100 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message news:Xns921AAD6AED5B4C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.79... > "rob.wn5" wrote in news:TU5I8.9347$Uk6.1509377 > @news6-win.server.ntlworld.com: > > > > > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message > > news:Xns921A368887607C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.78... > >> Durandal wrote in news:20020525225650437-0500 > >> @news.cis.dfn.de: > >> > >> > The voice in my head named DarkStar told me: > >> >> Okay, what is this crap? > >> >> > >> >> 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground > >> >> fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? Boba > >> >> Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just > >> >> knocking him back? And where, oh where, were those 280 point-defence > >> >> cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation spheres > >> >> during the final battle? > >> > > >> > I suggest talking to the doctorate holding theoretical astrophysicist > >> > himself, Dr. Curtis Saxton. > >> > >> Who is never > >> > >> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html > >> > >> wrong. > >> > >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 > >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 > > > > Didn't both of these happen /before/ RotJ? > > Nope - the plots of both films are explicitly set after RotJ. Saw Caravan of courage when i was much younger and I can't recall when it was set but the only thing I can find about it on Starwars.com was this http://www.starwars.com/eu/feature/20000824/indexp2.html "A timeline published in the Star Wars Insider places the Ewok movies as happening a short time before Return of the Jedi. There is no Imperial presence visible on Endor, suggesting the films take place before the Death Star operation began in earnest. " Where did you hear it accored afterwards? Rob Wilson > > -- > DMZ mhm33x4 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne Poe" Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 18:00:29 -0700 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "rob.wn5" wrote > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote > > >> > I suggest talking to the doctorate holding theoretical astrophysicist > > >> > himself, Dr. Curtis Saxton. > > >> > > >> Who is never > > >> > > >> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html > > >> > > >> wrong. > > >> > > >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 > > >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 > > > > > > Didn't both of these happen /before/ RotJ? > > > > Nope - the plots of both films are explicitly set after RotJ. > > Saw Caravan of courage when i was much younger and I can't recall when it > was set but the only thing I can find about it on Starwars.com was this > > http://www.starwars.com/eu/feature/20000824/indexp2.html > > "A timeline published in the Star Wars Insider places the Ewok movies as > happening a short time before Return of the Jedi. There is no Imperial > presence visible on Endor, suggesting the films take place before the Death > Star operation began in earnest. " > > Where did you hear it accored afterwards? Well Rob, I think DMZ should know that official fact overrides pet theory. This is one area where the facts are so indisputably obvious that it shows the hypocrites of the group up nicely, though. http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Ambivalent DMZ Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 01:17:43 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "rob.wn5" wrote in news:a98I8.9859$Uk6.1627557@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com: > > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message > news:Xns921AAD6AED5B4C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.79... >> "rob.wn5" wrote in news:TU5I8.9347$Uk6.1509377 >> @news6-win.server.ntlworld.com: >> >> > >> > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in >> > message news:Xns921A368887607C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.78... >> >> Durandal wrote in news:20020525225650437-0500 >> >> @news.cis.dfn.de: >> >> >> >> > The voice in my head named DarkStar told me: >> >> >> Okay, what is this crap? >> >> >> >> >> >> 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the >> >> >> ground fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi >> >> >> fighter? Boba Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several >> >> >> times and just knocking him back? And where, oh where, were >> >> >> those 280 > point-defence >> >> >> cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation >> >> >> spheres during the final battle? >> >> > >> >> > I suggest talking to the doctorate holding theoretical >> >> > astrophysicist himself, Dr. Curtis Saxton. >> >> >> >> Who is never >> >> >> >> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html >> >> >> >> wrong. >> >> >> >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 >> >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 >> > >> > Didn't both of these happen /before/ RotJ? >> >> Nope - the plots of both films are explicitly set after RotJ. > > Saw Caravan of courage when i was much younger and I can't recall when > it was set but the only thing I can find about it on Starwars.com was > this > > http://www.starwars.com/eu/feature/20000824/indexp2.html > > "A timeline published in the Star Wars Insider places the Ewok movies > as happening a short time before Return of the Jedi. There is no > Imperial presence visible on Endor, suggesting the films take place > before the Death Star operation began in earnest." Is this information considered official? A lack of Imperial presence could just as easily place it after Return of the Jedi. Ditto for the language, since that's a matter of intepretation of the evidence. On the one hand, it's English, not Basic, which explains why Wicket couldn't speak Basic in RotJ. On the other hand, it's Basic, which explains why he can speak it then but not before or during RotJ. Certainly it must be within Wicket's lifespan either before or after the Imperials were present. > Where did you hear it accored afterwards? Plot synopsis - ie review. Hardly first hand. Of course, if I can get something concrete out of the films themselves... -- DMZ mhm33x4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rob.wn5" Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 02:39:56 +0100 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message news:Xns921B17595B6BEC8H10N4O2@158.152.254.71... > "rob.wn5" wrote in > news:a98I8.9859$Uk6.1627557@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com: > > > > > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message > > news:Xns921AAD6AED5B4C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.79... > >> "rob.wn5" wrote in news:TU5I8.9347$Uk6.1509377 > >> @news6-win.server.ntlworld.com: > >> > >> > > >> > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in > >> > message news:Xns921A368887607C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.78... > >> >> Durandal wrote in news:20020525225650437-0500 > >> >> @news.cis.dfn.de: > >> >> > >> >> > The voice in my head named DarkStar told me: > >> >> >> Okay, what is this crap? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the > >> >> >> ground fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi > >> >> >> fighter? Boba Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several > >> >> >> times and just knocking him back? And where, oh where, were > >> >> >> those 280 > > point-defence > >> >> >> cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation > >> >> >> spheres during the final battle? > >> >> > > >> >> > I suggest talking to the doctorate holding theoretical > >> >> > astrophysicist himself, Dr. Curtis Saxton. > >> >> > >> >> Who is never > >> >> > >> >> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html > >> >> > >> >> wrong. > >> >> > >> >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 > >> >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 > >> > > >> > Didn't both of these happen /before/ RotJ? > >> > >> Nope - the plots of both films are explicitly set after RotJ. > > > > Saw Caravan of courage when i was much younger and I can't recall when > > it was set but the only thing I can find about it on Starwars.com was > > this > > > > http://www.starwars.com/eu/feature/20000824/indexp2.html > > > > "A timeline published in the Star Wars Insider places the Ewok movies > > as happening a short time before Return of the Jedi. There is no > > Imperial presence visible on Endor, suggesting the films take place > > before the Death Star operation began in earnest." > > Is this information considered official? It's the official site, so I'm thinking yes. :-) > > A lack of Imperial presence could just as easily place it after Return of > the Jedi. Ditto for the language, since that's a matter of intepretation of > the evidence. On the one hand, it's English, not Basic, which explains why > Wicket couldn't speak Basic in RotJ. On the other hand, it's Basic, which > explains why he can speak it then but not before or during RotJ. The official explaination for the language was that it was different to Basic, that's the word from Lucasfilm. unless George Lucas says anything against that, then that's as high as you can go. > > Certainly it must be within Wicket's lifespan either before or after the > Imperials were present. > > > Where did you hear it accored afterwards? Dear lord, how the hell did I manage to spell "occured" like that? > > Plot synopsis - ie review. Hardly first hand. Of course, if I can get > something concrete out of the films themselves... Well I found a review as well http://www.fredcorp.com/vortex/reviews/e/ewok1MK.htm "The movie, set before the original Star Wars trilogy," Couldn't find any others though. Rob Wilson > > -- > DMZ mhm33x4 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Ambivalent DMZ Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 02:08:16 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "rob.wn5" wrote in news:t8gI8.2057$0x3.170204@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net: > > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message > news:Xns921B17595B6BEC8H10N4O2@158.152.254.71... >> "rob.wn5" wrote in >> news:a98I8.9859$Uk6.1627557@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com: >> >> > >> > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in >> > message news:Xns921AAD6AED5B4C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.79... >> >> "rob.wn5" wrote in >> >> news:TU5I8.9347$Uk6.1509377 @news6-win.server.ntlworld.com: >> >> >> >> > >> >> > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in >> >> > message news:Xns921A368887607C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.78... >> >> >> Durandal wrote in >> >> >> news:20020525225650437-0500 @news.cis.dfn.de: >> >> >> >> >> >> > The voice in my head named DarkStar told me: >> >> >> >> Okay, what is this crap? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the >> >> >> >> ground fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi >> >> >> >> fighter? Boba Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan >> >> >> >> several times and just knocking him back? And where, oh >> >> >> >> where, were those 280 >> > point-defence >> >> >> >> cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation >> >> >> >> spheres during the final battle? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I suggest talking to the doctorate holding theoretical >> >> >> > astrophysicist himself, Dr. Curtis Saxton. >> >> >> >> >> >> Who is never >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html >> >> >> >> >> >> wrong. >> >> >> >> >> >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 >> >> >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 >> >> > >> >> > Didn't both of these happen /before/ RotJ? >> >> >> >> Nope - the plots of both films are explicitly set after RotJ. >> > >> > Saw Caravan of courage when i was much younger and I can't recall >> > when it was set but the only thing I can find about it on >> > Starwars.com was this >> > >> > http://www.starwars.com/eu/feature/20000824/indexp2.html >> > >> > "A timeline published in the Star Wars Insider places the Ewok >> > movies as happening a short time before Return of the Jedi. There >> > is no Imperial presence visible on Endor, suggesting the films take >> > place before the Death Star operation began in earnest." >> >> Is this information considered official? > > It's the official site, so I'm thinking yes. :-) Not to sound pedantic, but it's only reporting that Star Wars Insider places the Ewok movies before RotJ, ditto it doesn't state that the films take place before DS operation, only that the lack of Imperial presence suggests it. What I'm asking is whether Star Wars Insider is considered official? Of course, this is moot if the film is considered canon and there's concrete references in it. >> A lack of Imperial presence could just as easily place it after >> Return of the Jedi. Ditto for the language, since that's a matter of >> intepretation > of >> the evidence. On the one hand, it's English, not Basic, which >> explains why Wicket couldn't speak Basic in RotJ. On the other hand, >> it's Basic, which explains why he can speak it then but not before or >> during RotJ. > > The official explaination for the language was that it was different > to Basic, that's the word from Lucasfilm. unless George Lucas says > anything against that, then that's as high as you can go. Fair enough. >> Certainly it must be within Wicket's lifespan either before or after >> the Imperials were present. >> >> > Where did you hear it accored afterwards? > > Dear lord, how the hell did I manage to spell "occured" like that? Disturbance in the Force? >> Plot synopsis - ie review. Hardly first hand. Of course, if I can get >> something concrete out of the films themselves... > > Well I found a review as well > > http://www.fredcorp.com/vortex/reviews/e/ewok1MK.htm > > "The movie, set before the original Star Wars trilogy," > > Couldn't find any others though. X-Entertainment does some particularly amusing reviews: http://www.x-entertainment.com/ - latest review is Droids! http://www.x-entertainment.com/messages/233.html http://www.x-entertainment.com/messages/576.html There's literally millions of the things if you just use Google, one particular loon sets them as after RotJ: http://www.lucasfan.com/swtv/bfedet1.html But hang on! We can see that the Ewok arrows *do* have tips! Are they stone or metal, I wonder? (Unrelated to this debate, but to another) You know - it occurred to me that there are certain depths to which I will not stoop. Researching the plot and contents of a 1985 ABC-TV film that was a blatant attempt to cash in on the success of the Ewoks by GL is one of them. -- DMZ mhm33x4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rob.wn5" Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 03:22:24 +0100 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message news:Xns921B1FEBC9F63C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.78... > "rob.wn5" wrote in > news:t8gI8.2057$0x3.170204@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net: > > > > > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message > > news:Xns921B17595B6BEC8H10N4O2@158.152.254.71... > >> "rob.wn5" wrote in > >> news:a98I8.9859$Uk6.1627557@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com: > >> > >> > > >> > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in > >> > message news:Xns921AAD6AED5B4C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.79... > >> >> "rob.wn5" wrote in > >> >> news:TU5I8.9347$Uk6.1509377 @news6-win.server.ntlworld.com: > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in > >> >> > message news:Xns921A368887607C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.78... > >> >> >> Durandal wrote in > >> >> >> news:20020525225650437-0500 @news.cis.dfn.de: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The voice in my head named DarkStar told me: > >> >> >> >> Okay, what is this crap? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the > >> >> >> >> ground fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi > >> >> >> >> fighter? Boba Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan > >> >> >> >> several times and just knocking him back? And where, oh > >> >> >> >> where, were those 280 > >> > point-defence > >> >> >> >> cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation > >> >> >> >> spheres during the final battle? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I suggest talking to the doctorate holding theoretical > >> >> >> > astrophysicist himself, Dr. Curtis Saxton. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Who is never > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html > >> >> >> > >> >> >> wrong. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 > >> >> >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 > >> >> > > >> >> > Didn't both of these happen /before/ RotJ? > >> >> > >> >> Nope - the plots of both films are explicitly set after RotJ. > >> > > >> > Saw Caravan of courage when i was much younger and I can't recall > >> > when it was set but the only thing I can find about it on > >> > Starwars.com was this > >> > > >> > http://www.starwars.com/eu/feature/20000824/indexp2.html > >> > > >> > "A timeline published in the Star Wars Insider places the Ewok > >> > movies as happening a short time before Return of the Jedi. There > >> > is no Imperial presence visible on Endor, suggesting the films take > >> > place before the Death Star operation began in earnest." > >> > >> Is this information considered official? > > > > It's the official site, so I'm thinking yes. :-) > > Not to sound pedantic, but it's only reporting that Star Wars Insider > places the Ewok movies before RotJ, ditto it doesn't state that the films > take place before DS operation, only that the lack of Imperial presence > suggests it. What I'm asking is whether Star Wars Insider is considered > official? Of course, this is moot if the film is considered canon and > there's concrete references in it. Isn't Star Wars insider the publication that Gave us the Order of Canon. :-) Indeed isn't it the Officail magazine of Lucasfilms concerning Star Wars? Snip > > >> Certainly it must be within Wicket's lifespan either before or after > >> the Imperials were present. > >> > >> > Where did you hear it accored afterwards? > > > > Dear lord, how the hell did I manage to spell "occured" like that? > > Disturbance in the Force? > > >> Plot synopsis - ie review. Hardly first hand. Of course, if I can get > >> something concrete out of the films themselves... > > > > Well I found a review as well > > > > http://www.fredcorp.com/vortex/reviews/e/ewok1MK.htm > > > > "The movie, set before the original Star Wars trilogy," > > > > Couldn't find any others though. > > X-Entertainment does some particularly amusing reviews: > > http://www.x-entertainment.com/ - latest review is Droids! > http://www.x-entertainment.com/messages/233.html > http://www.x-entertainment.com/messages/576.html > Cheers. Another one to add to my Favourites. > There's literally millions of the things if you just use Google, one > particular loon sets them as after RotJ: I was using Yahoo "Caravan of Courage " "reviews" and it came up with 22 sites, of which one had an actual review of the film. :-( > > http://www.lucasfan.com/swtv/bfedet1.html > > But hang on! We can see that the Ewok arrows *do* have tips! Are they stone > or metal, I wonder? (Unrelated to this debate, but to another) Probably stone, but holy shit they're thin. Thats some top class Knapping. > > You know - it occurred to me that there are certain depths to which I will > not stoop. Researching the plot and contents of a 1985 ABC-TV film that was > a blatant attempt to cash in on the success of the Ewoks by GL is one of > them. Heheheheehee. Only know do you realise the power of the Dark Side. Rob Wilson > > -- > DMZ mhm33x4 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 01:20:16 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "The Ambivalent DMZ" wrote in message news:Xns921B1FEBC9F63C8H10N4O2@158.152.254.78... > >> >> >> Who is never > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html > >> >> >> > >> >> >> wrong. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087225 > >> >> >> http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089110 > >> >> > > >> >> > Didn't both of these happen /before/ RotJ? > >> >> > >> >> Nope - the plots of both films are explicitly set after RotJ. http://www.lucasfan.com/swtv/bfedet1.html The page agrees with the post-ROTJ assessment, as well as showing areas on the "forest moon" that may well have been "deforested" by Imperial mining operations. Interestingly, the Star Wars magazine they talk about puts the TV movies before ROTJ because of the lack of Imperial presence. Well, the Marauders were on the planet "for generations", and we never heard of or saw them in Return of the Jedi. So, if not seeing someone is supposed to be that meaningful, maybe not seeing the Marauders means that the movie takes place "generations" after Return of the Jedi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kazuaki Shimazaki" Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 12:31:59 +0800 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:80ae86b7.0205251948.6e386cb2@posting.google.com... > Okay, what is this crap? > > 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground Why not? Are you aware how destructive a 200GT thing is when the Jedi are all on the ground by then, even if you can make it a fraction of its full potential? > fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? Boba > Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just That just shows strong, reflective materials. Have you ever heard of shields? > knocking him back? And where, oh where, were those 280 point-defence > cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation spheres > during the final battle? > > Sounds like someone heard Malcolm Reed claim 500 gigajoules for > Enterprise's phase cannons and got jealous. You are obviously a low grade Trekkie who thinks that Curtis Saxton even got a care for Star Trek. Similar numbers have been up and in the air for years now, before the ICS, BEFORE the new "Enterprise" episodes. Saxton just took the numbers and wrote them on the page, making them official fact. For examples of such numbers, look at http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire. Its pages are written before the EP2:ICS era. Some of them are written before the TM went obsolete era. Curtis is on http://www.theforce.net/swtc. Go there and you'll get additional confirmation that this kind of numbers have been around for eons. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) Date: 26 May 2002 14:54:00 -0700 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: <80ae86b7.0205261354.3814ed75@posting.google.com> -------- "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message news:... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:80ae86b7.0205251948.6e386cb2@posting.google.com... > > Okay, what is this crap? > > > > 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground > > Why not? Are you aware how destructive a 200GT thing is when the Jedi > are all on the ground by then, even if you can make it a fraction of its > full potential? > That's why you don't land the Acclamators at all. Or just do as much as needed to bring down the Hueys to pick up the Jedi survivors, then take off and destroy the Trade Federation spheres and the droid foundry from orbit, or a distance. The ground fight was a waste of clones and equipment. The reverse of that would be to ask why the Trade Federation bothered sending out droids. A few could be sent out for show to draw the clones and Jedi in, but it would only have taken a few shots from one of their 8 kiloton-point defence cannons to utterly destroy the Republic forces. A 2.5 kiloton atomic bomb (even if you leave out the 20% of the blast that is nuclear radiation) will inflict fatal injuries on everything within a kilometer due to heat and pressure. > > fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? Boba > > Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just > > That just shows strong, reflective materials. Have you ever heard of > shields? > Obi-Wan was not shielded either time, especially when Boba shot at him. I don't think you realize what 600 gigajoules should have done. Boba Fett would have done better with an M61A1 Vulcan 20mm cannon off of an F-104 Starfighter (US Air Force). The bullets have 50 kJ of force behind them coming out of the barrel, and if you use the high explosive incendiary rounds, you can still make a casualty occur two meters from the target. Obi-Wan had "600 gigajoules" blow up in his face and wasn't injured. That means it is not 600 gigajoules. And you can't say the force protected him, because we saw Jedis get shot and die later with simple droid blasters. > > knocking him back? And where, oh where, were those 280 point-defence > > cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade Federation spheres > > during the final battle? > > > > Sounds like someone heard Malcolm Reed claim 500 gigajoules for > > Enterprise's phase cannons and got jealous. > > You are obviously a low grade Trekkie who thinks that Curtis Saxton even > got a care for Star Trek. Similar numbers have been up and in the air > for years now, before the ICS, BEFORE the new "Enterprise" episodes. > Saxton just took the numbers and wrote them on the page, making them > official fact. > Sure Saxton doesn't have a care for Star Trek. He just happens to have put several names in his book's thank-yous that one can see here, not to mention listing "Wong, Michael" as a "Major Reference" every chance he gets on that website. The links on that page with Star Trek and Star Trek versus Star Wars in them are nice proof, too. > For examples of such numbers, look at > http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire. Its pages are written before the > EP2:ICS era. Some of them are written before the TM went obsolete era. > > Curtis is on http://www.theforce.net/swtc. Go there and you'll get > additional confirmation that this kind of numbers have been around for > eons. Big deal. Doesn't matter if these numbers and "calculations" are old. They are still wrong, and getting someone to throw them in a book doesn't make them any better, whether it is official or not. If I get some company to print a high-quality flyer, with illustrations, that says I have developed a 9mm bullet with a 1 kiloton nuclear explosive that goes off on impact, are you going to believe that even though every time you see me shoot it the thing acts just like a hollowpoint? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Phil Skayhan" Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 23:03:44 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:80ae86b7.0205261354.3814ed75@posting.google.com... > "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message news:... > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > news:80ae86b7.0205251948.6e386cb2@posting.google.com... > > > Okay, what is this crap? > > > > > > 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground > > > > Why not? Are you aware how destructive a 200GT thing is when the Jedi > > are all on the ground by then, even if you can make it a fraction of its > > full potential? > > > > That's why you don't land the Acclamators at all. Or just do as much > as needed to bring down the Hueys to pick up the Jedi survivors, then > take off and destroy the Trade Federation spheres and the droid > foundry from orbit, or a distance. The ground fight was a waste of > clones and equipment. The problem with this is that the Jedi in command might have been a bit hesitant about killing all those Geonosians. > The reverse of that would be to ask why the Trade Federation bothered > sending out droids. A few could be sent out for show to draw the > clones and Jedi in, but it would only have taken a few shots from one > of their 8 kiloton-point defence cannons to utterly destroy the > Republic forces. A 2.5 kiloton atomic bomb (even if you leave out the > 20% of the blast that is nuclear radiation) will inflict fatal > injuries on everything within a kilometer due to heat and pressure. The problem with this is that the Viceroy in command might have been a bit hesitant about killing all those Geonosians, their factory, and fellow Neomodians(sp?) that may have still been on the planet. > > > fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? Boba > > > Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just > > > > That just shows strong, reflective materials. Have you ever heard of > > shields? > > > > Obi-Wan was not shielded either time, especially when Boba shot at > him. I don't think you realize what 600 gigajoules should have done. > Obi-Wan had "600 gigajoules" blow up in his > face and wasn't injured. That means it is not 600 gigajoules. Could it possibly be a low powered shot? > > You are obviously a low grade Trekkie who thinks that Curtis Saxton even > > got a care for Star Trek. Similar numbers have been up and in the air > > for years now, before the ICS, BEFORE the new "Enterprise" episodes. > > Saxton just took the numbers and wrote them on the page, making them > > official fact. > > > > Sure Saxton doesn't have a care for Star Trek. He just happens to > have put several names in his book's thank-yous that one can see here, > not to mention listing "Wong, Michael" as a "Major Reference" every > chance he gets on that website. The links on that page with Star Trek > and Star Trek versus Star Wars in them are nice proof, too. Isn't it proper to give credit when someone helps in some way? How does his giving credit to anyone invalidate his work? Or do you believe that this is all a conspiricy to give an advantage to Star Wars in this forum. > > For examples of such numbers, look at > > http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire. Its pages are written before the > > EP2:ICS era. Some of them are written before the TM went obsolete era. > > > > Curtis is on http://www.theforce.net/swtc. Go there and you'll get > > additional confirmation that this kind of numbers have been around for > > eons. > > Big deal. Doesn't matter if these numbers and "calculations" are old. > They are still wrong, This one is easy. Show us the proof that these calcs are wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) Date: 27 May 2002 19:49:42 -0700 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: <80ae86b7.0205271849.59b580e5@posting.google.com> -------- "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message news:... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:80ae86b7.0205261354.3814ed75@posting.google.com... > > "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message > news:... > > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > > news:80ae86b7.0205251948.6e386cb2@posting.google.com... > > > > Okay, what is this crap? > > > > > > > > 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground > > > > > > Why not? Are you aware how destructive a 200GT thing is when the Jedi > > > are all on the ground by then, even if you can make it a fraction of its > > > full potential? > > > > > > > That's why you don't land the Acclamators at all. Or just do as much > > as needed to bring down the Hueys to pick up the Jedi survivors, then > > take off and destroy the Trade Federation spheres and the droid > > foundry from orbit, or a distance. The ground fight was a waste of > > clones and equipment. > > The problem with this is that the Jedi in command might have been a bit > hesitant about killing all those Geonosians. Okay, then . . . ignore the foundries and destroy the Trade Federation starships. > > The reverse of that would be to ask why the Trade Federation bothered > > sending out droids. A few could be sent out for show to draw the > > clones and Jedi in, but it would only have taken a few shots from one > > of their 8 kiloton-point defence cannons to utterly destroy the > > Republic forces. A 2.5 kiloton atomic bomb (even if you leave out the > > 20% of the blast that is nuclear radiation) will inflict fatal > > injuries on everything within a kilometer due to heat and pressure. > > The problem with this is that the Viceroy in command might have been a bit > hesitant about killing all those Geonosians, their factory, and fellow > Neomodians(sp?) that may have still been on the planet. Three or four 8 kiloton shots would not have killed any Geonosians who were not above ground and in the vicinity of the clones and Jedi. The hilly terrain would have protected the two above-ground structures (the cathedral thing and the arena, if you can even call that above-ground), since the damage would be contained. Finally, an 8 kiloton blast above-ground would almost certainly not harm the foundries below, even assuming the foundries were directly below the battle site. > > > > > fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? Boba > > > > Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just > > > > > > That just shows strong, reflective materials. Have you ever heard of > > > shields? > > > > > > > Obi-Wan was not shielded either time, especially when Boba shot at > > him. I don't think you realize what 600 gigajoules should have done. > > Obi-Wan had "600 gigajoules" blow up in his > > face and wasn't injured. That means it is not 600 gigajoules. > > Could it possibly be a low powered shot? According to one of your fellow debaters, Saxton calculated the strength of the weapons off of the movie itself. I don't know how he would have concluded, based on what is seen, that the weapon can inflict the equivalent of 143 tons of TNT. Could it have been a low powered shot? Possibly, but there is no reason to suspect this without prior bias. > > Big deal. Doesn't matter if these numbers and "calculations" are old. > > They are still wrong, > > This one is easy. Show us the proof that these calcs are wrong. Easy. Obi-Wan isn't extra-crispy throughout the last half of the movie. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Phil Skayhan" Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 03:31:30 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:80ae86b7.0205271849.59b580e5@posting.google.com... > "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message news:... > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > news:80ae86b7.0205261354.3814ed75@posting.google.com... > > > "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message > > news:... > > > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > > > news:80ae86b7.0205251948.6e386cb2@posting.google.com... > > > > > Okay, what is this crap? > > > > > > > > > > 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground > > > > > > > > Why not? Are you aware how destructive a 200GT thing is when the Jedi > > > > are all on the ground by then, even if you can make it a fraction of its > > > > full potential? > > > > > > > > > > That's why you don't land the Acclamators at all. Or just do as much > > > as needed to bring down the Hueys to pick up the Jedi survivors, then > > > take off and destroy the Trade Federation spheres and the droid > > > foundry from orbit, or a distance. The ground fight was a waste of > > > clones and equipment. > > > > The problem with this is that the Jedi in command might have been a bit > > hesitant about killing all those Geonosians. > > Okay, then . . . ignore the foundries and destroy the Trade Federation > starships. There was one thing I didn't mention before, there are reasons to put troops on the ground. Air or space power alone cannot take or hold territory; only forces on the ground can do this. And did the troops on the ground not deal with the escaping spheres? > > > > The reverse of that would be to ask why the Trade Federation bothered > > > sending out droids. A few could be sent out for show to draw the > > > clones and Jedi in, but it would only have taken a few shots from one > > > of their 8 kiloton-point defence cannons to utterly destroy the > > > Republic forces. A 2.5 kiloton atomic bomb (even if you leave out the > > > 20% of the blast that is nuclear radiation) will inflict fatal > > > injuries on everything within a kilometer due to heat and pressure. > > > > The problem with this is that the Viceroy in command might have been a bit > > hesitant about killing all those Geonosians, their factory, and fellow > > Neomodians(sp?) that may have still been on the planet. > > Three or four 8 kiloton shots would not have killed any Geonosians who > were not above ground and in the vicinity of the clones and Jedi. The > hilly terrain would have protected the two above-ground structures > (the cathedral thing and the arena, if you can even call that > above-ground), since the damage would be contained. Finally, an 8 > kiloton blast above-ground would almost certainly not harm the > foundries below, even assuming the foundries were directly below the > battle site. Actually, I'm curious as to whether or not the Federation Sphere's are even armed. I'm going to check TPM to see if any shots come from the globe or if they all come from the ring. Maybe someone who has ICS could help here.... Another question: where the Acclamators even present at Geonosis? Is it mentioned in the novel? I don't recall seeing one at the planet. > > > > > > > fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? Boba > > > > > Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just > > > > > > > > That just shows strong, reflective materials. Have you ever heard of > > > > shields? > > > > > > > > > > Obi-Wan was not shielded either time, especially when Boba shot at > > > him. I don't think you realize what 600 gigajoules should have done. > > > Obi-Wan had "600 gigajoules" blow up in his > > > face and wasn't injured. That means it is not 600 gigajoules. > > > > Could it possibly be a low powered shot? > > According to one of your fellow debaters, Saxton calculated the > strength of the weapons off of the movie itself. I don't know how he > would have concluded, based on what is seen, that the weapon can > inflict the equivalent of 143 tons of TNT. Could it have been a low > powered shot? Possibly, but there is no reason to suspect this > without prior bias. More than likely this figure was derived from the asteroid scene. > > > > Big deal. Doesn't matter if these numbers and "calculations" are old. > > > They are still wrong, > > > > This one is easy. Show us the proof that these calcs are wrong. > > Easy. Obi-Wan isn't extra-crispy throughout the last half of the > movie. Do the figures in ICS represent upper or lower limits? Which one of these could we derive from the scene with Obi-Wan? Have you considered any other possible reason why Ben wasn't incinerated besides "the figure in ICS is wrong"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 00:46:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message news:mSCI8.2293$9V.1351@nwrddc03.gnilink.net... > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:80ae86b7.0205271849.59b580e5@posting.google.com... > > "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message > news:... > > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > > news:80ae86b7.0205261354.3814ed75@posting.google.com... > > > > "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message > > > news:... > > > > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > > > > news:80ae86b7.0205251948.6e386cb2@posting.google.com... > > > > > > Okay, what is this crap? > > > > > > > > > > > > 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground > > > > > > > > > > Why not? Are you aware how destructive a 200GT thing is when the > Jedi > > > > > are all on the ground by then, even if you can make it a fraction of > its > > > > > full potential? > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's why you don't land the Acclamators at all. Or just do as much > > > > as needed to bring down the Hueys to pick up the Jedi survivors, then > > > > take off and destroy the Trade Federation spheres and the droid > > > > foundry from orbit, or a distance. The ground fight was a waste of > > > > clones and equipment. > > > > > > The problem with this is that the Jedi in command might have been a bit > > > hesitant about killing all those Geonosians. > > > > Okay, then . . . ignore the foundries and destroy the Trade Federation > > starships. > > There was one thing I didn't mention before, there are reasons to put > troops on the ground. Air or space power alone cannot take or hold > territory; only forces on the ground can do this. And did the troops on the > ground not deal with the escaping spheres? > Also you might want to note that the TradeFed ships aren't exactly unarmed little pieces of crap which will roll over and using troop transports to take out the ships would be risking a good deal of combat power in a space duel, combat powerwhich might be neccessarrry to take and hold the planet. > > > > > > The reverse of that would be to ask why the Trade Federation bothered > > > > sending out droids. A few could be sent out for show to draw the > > > > clones and Jedi in, but it would only have taken a few shots from one > > > > of their 8 kiloton-point defence cannons to utterly destroy the > > > > Republic forces. A 2.5 kiloton atomic bomb (even if you leave out the > > > > 20% of the blast that is nuclear radiation) will inflict fatal > > > > injuries on everything within a kilometer due to heat and pressure. > > > > > > The problem with this is that the Viceroy in command might have been a > bit > > > hesitant about killing all those Geonosians, their factory, and fellow > > > Neomodians(sp?) that may have still been on the planet. > > > > Three or four 8 kiloton shots would not have killed any Geonosians who > > were not above ground and in the vicinity of the clones and Jedi. The > > hilly terrain would have protected the two above-ground structures > > (the cathedral thing and the arena, if you can even call that > > above-ground), since the damage would be contained. Finally, an 8 > > kiloton blast above-ground would almost certainly not harm the > > foundries below, even assuming the foundries were directly below the > > battle site. > > Actually, I'm curious as to whether or not the Federation Sphere's are even > armed. > I'm going to check TPM to see if any shots come from the globe or if they > all come from the ring. > > Maybe someone who has ICS could help here.... They are armed and shielded. Very good shields but mostly only point-defense weapons. > Another question: where the Acclamators even present at Geonosis? Is it > mentioned in the novel? > I don't recall seeing one at the planet. > You don't rememebr seeing them as Yoda et all flew right over them? > > > > > > > > > fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? > Boba > > > > > > Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just > > > > > > > > > > That just shows strong, reflective materials. Have you ever heard of > > > > > shields? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obi-Wan was not shielded either time, especially when Boba shot at > > > > him. I don't think you realize what 600 gigajoules should have done. > > > > Obi-Wan had "600 gigajoules" blow up in his > > > > face and wasn't injured. That means it is not 600 gigajoules. > > > > > > Could it possibly be a low powered shot? > > > > According to one of your fellow debaters, Saxton calculated the > > strength of the weapons off of the movie itself. I don't know how he > > would have concluded, based on what is seen, that the weapon can > > inflict the equivalent of 143 tons of TNT. Could it have been a low > > powered shot? Possibly, but there is no reason to suspect this > > without prior bias. > > More than likely this figure was derived from the asteroid scene. > The asteroid scene would have provided much more viable data as asteroid composition is contrained by astrophysical concerns with which Dr Saxton is most likely highly familiar. Thus they have a better baseline for measuring output. > > > > > > Big deal. Doesn't matter if these numbers and "calculations" are old. > > > > They are still wrong, > > > > > > This one is easy. Show us the proof that these calcs are wrong. > > > > Easy. Obi-Wan isn't extra-crispy throughout the last half of the > > movie. > > Do the figures in ICS represent upper or lower limits? > > Which one of these could we derive from the scene with Obi-Wan? > > Have you considered any other possible reason why Ben wasn't incinerated > besides "the figure in ICS is wrong"? > I find it funny that he dismisses that calcs in the same post he acknowledges we could find reason to believe the shots were low powered (the asteroid scene is perfect proof). -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Phil Skayhan" Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 05:17:19 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:acv26a$so9hu$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message > news:mSCI8.2293$9V.1351@nwrddc03.gnilink.net... > > Another question: where the Acclamators even present at Geonosis? Is it > > mentioned in the novel? > > I don't recall seeing one at the planet. > > > > You don't rememebr seeing them as Yoda et all flew right over them? > I was busy waiting to see if more of Padme's clothes were gonna be torn off.... > > > > > > > > > > > fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? > > Boba > > > > > > > Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just > > > > > > > > > > > > That just shows strong, reflective materials. Have you ever heard > of > > > > > > shields? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obi-Wan was not shielded either time, especially when Boba shot at > > > > > him. I don't think you realize what 600 gigajoules should have > done. > > > > > Obi-Wan had "600 gigajoules" blow up in his > > > > > face and wasn't injured. That means it is not 600 gigajoules. > > > > > > > > Could it possibly be a low powered shot? > > > > > > According to one of your fellow debaters, Saxton calculated the > > > strength of the weapons off of the movie itself. I don't know how he > > > would have concluded, based on what is seen, that the weapon can > > > inflict the equivalent of 143 tons of TNT. Could it have been a low > > > powered shot? Possibly, but there is no reason to suspect this > > > without prior bias. > > > > More than likely this figure was derived from the asteroid scene. > > > > The asteroid scene would have provided much more viable data as asteroid > composition is contrained by astrophysical concerns with which Dr Saxton is > most likely highly familiar. Thus they have a better baseline for measuring > output. > No doubt we'll look foward to the "Slave I Asteroid Calcs Ver 1.0" > > > > > > > > Big deal. Doesn't matter if these numbers and "calculations" are > old. > > > > > They are still wrong, > > > > > > > > This one is easy. Show us the proof that these calcs are wrong. > > > > > > Easy. Obi-Wan isn't extra-crispy throughout the last half of the > > > movie. > > > > Do the figures in ICS represent upper or lower limits? > > > > Which one of these could we derive from the scene with Obi-Wan? > > > > Have you considered any other possible reason why Ben wasn't incinerated > > besides "the figure in ICS is wrong"? > > > > I find it funny that he dismisses that calcs in the same post he > acknowledges we could find reason to believe the shots were low powered (the > asteroid scene is perfect proof). Although I admit I'm curious as to how far from Ben the shot and how far he was thrown, if any damage is visible on the platform, and are there any indicators on the ship's panel which could denote power level. He does say in another post that it's possible the guns were not fully charged up. While he may have misconceptions about Saxton's motives, he definitely a cut above most of the recent newbies. > -- > Lcpl Burnett, G.R. > USMCR > BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG > > "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" > - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 01:49:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message news:zpEI8.22159$Np5.16242@nwrddc01.gnilink.net... > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:acv26a$so9hu$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message > > news:mSCI8.2293$9V.1351@nwrddc03.gnilink.net... > > > > Another question: where the Acclamators even present at Geonosis? Is it > > > mentioned in the novel? > > > I don't recall seeing one at the planet. > > > > > > > You don't rememebr seeing them as Yoda et all flew right over them? > > > > I was busy waiting to see if more of Padme's clothes were gonna be torn > off.... I was waiting for an RotJ-esque "acidental" showing since ANH proved that Bras don't exist in the SW universe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? > > > Boba > > > > > > > > Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just shows strong, reflective materials. Have you ever > heard > > of > > > > > > > shields? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obi-Wan was not shielded either time, especially when Boba shot at > > > > > > him. I don't think you realize what 600 gigajoules should have > > done. > > > > > > Obi-Wan had "600 gigajoules" blow up in his > > > > > > face and wasn't injured. That means it is not 600 gigajoules. > > > > > > > > > > Could it possibly be a low powered shot? > > > > > > > > According to one of your fellow debaters, Saxton calculated the > > > > strength of the weapons off of the movie itself. I don't know how he > > > > would have concluded, based on what is seen, that the weapon can > > > > inflict the equivalent of 143 tons of TNT. Could it have been a low > > > > powered shot? Possibly, but there is no reason to suspect this > > > > without prior bias. > > > > > > More than likely this figure was derived from the asteroid scene. > > > > > > > The asteroid scene would have provided much more viable data as asteroid > > composition is contrained by astrophysical concerns with which Dr Saxton > is > > most likely highly familiar. Thus they have a better baseline for > measuring > > output. > > > > No doubt we'll look foward to the "Slave I Asteroid Calcs Ver 1.0" > Possibly but I never took fracture mechanics so wait a year or two for me to get back into college full-time. > > > > > > > > > > Big deal. Doesn't matter if these numbers and "calculations" are > > old. > > > > > > They are still wrong, > > > > > > > > > > This one is easy. Show us the proof that these calcs are wrong. > > > > > > > > Easy. Obi-Wan isn't extra-crispy throughout the last half of the > > > > movie. > > > > > > Do the figures in ICS represent upper or lower limits? > > > > > > Which one of these could we derive from the scene with Obi-Wan? > > > > > > Have you considered any other possible reason why Ben wasn't incinerated > > > besides "the figure in ICS is wrong"? > > > > > > > I find it funny that he dismisses that calcs in the same post he > > acknowledges we could find reason to believe the shots were low powered > (the > > asteroid scene is perfect proof). > > Although I admit I'm curious as to how far from Ben the shot and how far he > was thrown, if any damage is visible on the platform, and are there any > indicators on the ship's panel which could denote power level. > > He does say in another post that it's possible the guns were not fully > charged up. While he may have misconceptions about Saxton's motives, he > definitely a cut above most of the recent newbies. > Fortunately he might be trainable...now to break out the LTL calcs and stop his foolishness and begin the conversion. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phong Nguyen Date: 28 May 2002 16:34:35 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in news:acv5ru$srnkf$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de: > "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message > news:zpEI8.22159$Np5.16242@nwrddc01.gnilink.net... >> >> "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message >> news:acv26a$so9hu$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... >> > "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message >> > news:mSCI8.2293$9V.1351@nwrddc03.gnilink.net... >> >> > > Another question: where the Acclamators even present at Geonosis? >> > > Is > it >> > > mentioned in the novel? >> > > I don't recall seeing one at the planet. >> > > >> > >> > You don't rememebr seeing them as Yoda et all flew right over them? >> > >> >> I was busy waiting to see if more of Padme's clothes were gonna be >> torn off.... > > I was waiting for an RotJ-esque "acidental" showing since ANH proved > that Bras don't exist in the SW universe. > Using gaffer's tape...wouldn't that be painful? >_< ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rob.wn5" Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 21:18:38 +0100 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:acv5ru$srnkf$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message > news:zpEI8.22159$Np5.16242@nwrddc01.gnilink.net... > > > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > > news:acv26a$so9hu$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > > "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message > > > news:mSCI8.2293$9V.1351@nwrddc03.gnilink.net... > > > > > > Another question: where the Acclamators even present at Geonosis? Is > it > > > > mentioned in the novel? > > > > I don't recall seeing one at the planet. > > > > > > > > > > You don't rememebr seeing them as Yoda et all flew right over them? > > > > > > > I was busy waiting to see if more of Padme's clothes were gonna be torn > > off.... > > I was waiting for an RotJ-esque "acidental" showing since ANH proved that > Bras don't exist in the SW universe. With Amidala's battle uniform I'm hard pressed to believe panties exist in the SW universe. Goddamn! but how tight was that number, I swear her Gynocologist doesn't know her as well as the people that saw AOTC. :-) Rob Wilson beginning to think he is seriously fixated by her in that outfit. :-) > > -- > Lcpl Burnett, G.R. > USMCR > BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG > > "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" > - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) Date: 28 May 2002 11:28:28 -0700 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: <80ae86b7.0205281028.71ae32f3@posting.google.com> -------- "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message news:... > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:acv26a$so9hu$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > "Phil Skayhan" wrote in message > > news:mSCI8.2293$9V.1351@nwrddc03.gnilink.net... > > > > Another question: where the Acclamators even present at Geonosis? Is it > > > mentioned in the novel? > > > I don't recall seeing one at the planet. > > > > > > > You don't rememebr seeing them as Yoda et all flew right over them? > > > > I was busy waiting to see if more of Padme's clothes were gonna be torn > off.... Weren't we all. If this were alt.starwarsbabes.vs.startrekbabes, I'd have to seriously consider an immediate surrender. > He does say in another post that it's possible the guns were not fully > charged up. While he may have misconceptions about Saxton's motives, he > definitely a cut above most of the recent newbies. Thanks. And sorry about the "jealous" thing... I was just being an ass. Must've read too much on here before posting. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phong Nguyen Date: 27 May 2002 01:15:11 GMT Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) wrote in news:80ae86b7.0205261354.3814ed75@posting.google.com: > "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message > news:... >> "DarkStar" wrote in message >> news:80ae86b7.0205251948.6e386cb2@posting.google.com... >> > Okay, what is this crap? >> > >> > 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground >> >> Why not? Are you aware how destructive a 200GT thing is when the Jedi >> are all on the ground by then, even if you can make it a fraction of >> its full potential? >> > > That's why you don't land the Acclamators at all. Or just do as much > as needed to bring down the Hueys to pick up the Jedi survivors, then > take off and destroy the Trade Federation spheres and the droid > foundry from orbit, or a distance. The ground fight was a waste of > clones and equipment. > And kill all of the civilians in the area? I think not. Since when do the Jedi (Yoda appeared to be in command) indiscrimiately kill civilians? > The reverse of that would be to ask why the Trade Federation bothered > sending out droids. A few could be sent out for show to draw the > clones and Jedi in, but it would only have taken a few shots from one > of their 8 kiloton-point defence cannons to utterly destroy the > Republic forces. > It might have, but there quite possibly would have been serious collateral damage. In addition, the Trade Federation are somewhat cowardly; they likely put all their energy into lifting off rather than shields and weapons. >> > fight? 8e12 J hits that just pockmark Obi-Wan's Jedi fighter? >> > Boba Fett shooting 600 gigajoules at Obi-Wan several times and just >> >> That just shows strong, reflective materials. Have you ever heard of >> shields? >> > > Obi-Wan was not shielded either time, especially when Boba shot at > him. I don't think you realize what 600 gigajoules should have done. > Boba Fett would have done better with an M61A1 Vulcan 20mm cannon off > of an F-104 Starfighter (US Air Force). The bullets have 50 kJ of > force behind them coming out of the barrel, and if you use the high > explosive incendiary rounds, you can still make a casualty occur two > meters from the target. Obi-Wan had "600 gigajoules" blow up in his > face and wasn't injured. That means it is not 600 gigajoules. > Or maybe because Boba just spooled up Slave I and the capacitors were not fully charged, hence no 600GJ bursts. Plus, that blast would have likely killed Jango and perhaps damaged the landing platform. > And you can't say the force protected him, because we saw Jedis get > shot and die later with simple droid blasters. > Ah, but Obi Wan would have had more time to react and prepare - the Jedi in the arena did not have that kind of time, not with hordes of battle droids shooting at you. >> > knocking him back? And where, oh where, were those 280 >> > point-defence cannons rated at 8 kilotons each on the Trade >> > Federation spheres during the final battle? >> > >> > Sounds like someone heard Malcolm Reed claim 500 gigajoules for >> > Enterprise's phase cannons and got jealous. >> >> You are obviously a low grade Trekkie who thinks that Curtis Saxton >> even got a care for Star Trek. Similar numbers have been up and in >> the air for years now, before the ICS, BEFORE the new "Enterprise" >> episodes. Saxton just took the numbers and wrote them on the page, >> making them official fact. >> > > Sure Saxton doesn't have a care for Star Trek. He just happens to > have put several names in his book's thank-yous that one can see here, > not to mention listing "Wong, Michael" as a "Major Reference" every > chance he gets on that website. The links on that page with Star Trek > and Star Trek versus Star Wars in them are nice proof, too. > It isn't proof. First of all, he's a nice guy and will link to your page if it's remotely relevant to his. Secondly, you give credit where credit's due. >> Curtis is on http://www.theforce.net/swtc. Go there and you'll get >> additional confirmation that this kind of numbers have been around >> for eons. > > Big deal. Doesn't matter if these numbers and "calculations" are old. > They are still wrong, and getting someone to throw them in a book > doesn't make them any better, whether it is official or not. If I get > some company to print a high-quality flyer, with illustrations, that > says I have developed a 9mm bullet with a 1 kiloton nuclear explosive > that goes off on impact, are you going to believe that even though > every time you see me shoot it the thing acts just like a hollowpoint? > Ooh, look at the strawman. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) Date: 27 May 2002 20:08:43 -0700 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: <80ae86b7.0205271908.2ad0d5df@posting.google.com> -------- Phong Nguyen wrote in message news:... > afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) wrote in > news:80ae86b7.0205261354.3814ed75@posting.google.com: > > > "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message > > news:... > >> "DarkStar" wrote in message > >> news:80ae86b7.0205251948.6e386cb2@posting.google.com... > >> > Okay, what is this crap? > >> > > >> > 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground > >> > >> Why not? Are you aware how destructive a 200GT thing is when the Jedi > >> are all on the ground by then, even if you can make it a fraction of > >> its full potential? > >> > > > > That's why you don't land the Acclamators at all. Or just do as much > > as needed to bring down the Hueys to pick up the Jedi survivors, then > > take off and destroy the Trade Federation spheres and the droid > > foundry from orbit, or a distance. The ground fight was a waste of > > clones and equipment. > > > And kill all of the civilians in the area? I think not. Since when do the > Jedi (Yoda appeared to be in command) indiscrimiately kill civilians? There were no civilians in the area. The closest civilians had escaped from the arena, which was some unspecified (but presumably far) distance from the battle. > > The reverse of that would be to ask why the Trade Federation bothered > > sending out droids. A few could be sent out for show to draw the > > clones and Jedi in, but it would only have taken a few shots from one > > of their 8 kiloton-point defence cannons to utterly destroy the > > Republic forces. > > > It might have, but there quite possibly would have been serious > collateral damage. Unlikely. A few 8 kiloton blasts within rocky terrain would have had only a slight effect. For example, the only real problem with the Trinity site (home of a 20-22 kiloton blast) was the radioactive fallout. Also, the bomb at Trinity was detonated 100 feet above the ground, so the only cratering was a shallow (2 meter) crater, and that was simply soil compression (with a little new glass on top). Given the topography and a desire to avoid damage to any underground facility that may have been near the Republic forces, there were several targeting options to choose from (they could have shot the side of one of the hills behind the Jedi), and any of these would have prevented the loss of countless droids, and the loss of a vessel. > > In addition, the Trade Federation are somewhat cowardly; they likely put > all their energy into lifting off rather than shields and weapons. > That makes no sense, and only makes the Trade Federation look worse. If they were putting all their energy into escape, they left themselves open to attack. Powering their shields would be a good plan, since it was apparent that they were under attack. And, if they wanted to end the battle quickly with a few 8 kiloton shots, they could have done so by simply charging one or two guns. > > Obi-Wan was not shielded either time, especially when Boba shot at > > him. I don't think you realize what 600 gigajoules should have done. > > Boba Fett would have done better with an M61A1 Vulcan 20mm cannon off > > of an F-104 Starfighter (US Air Force). The bullets have 50 kJ of > > force behind them coming out of the barrel, and if you use the high > > explosive incendiary rounds, you can still make a casualty occur two > > meters from the target. Obi-Wan had "600 gigajoules" blow up in his > > face and wasn't injured. That means it is not 600 gigajoules. > > > Or maybe because Boba just spooled up Slave I and the capacitors were not > fully charged, hence no 600GJ bursts. Plus, that blast would have likely > killed Jango and perhaps damaged the landing platform. Okay, the weapons could still have been charging. That works. But, it does lead to the question of where the ICS guy got 600 gigajoules from. > > > And you can't say the force protected him, because we saw Jedis get > > shot and die later with simple droid blasters. > > > Ah, but Obi Wan would have had more time to react and prepare - the Jedi > in the arena did not have that kind of time, not with hordes of battle > droids shooting at you. > Reacting and preparing were not seen. He got shot at, and was blown back by the close impact. > > Big deal. Doesn't matter if these numbers and "calculations" are old. > > They are still wrong, and getting someone to throw them in a book > > doesn't make them any better, whether it is official or not. If I get > > some company to print a high-quality flyer, with illustrations, that > > says I have developed a 9mm bullet with a 1 kiloton nuclear explosive > > that goes off on impact, are you going to believe that even though > > every time you see me shoot it the thing acts just like a hollowpoint? > > > Ooh, look at the strawman. It is not a strawman. It is a perfectly good analogy, replacing blasters with bullets. Skayhan asked if it was possible that Boba was firing low powered shots. Well, I can say I am, too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 00:56:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:80ae86b7.0205271908.2ad0d5df@posting.google.com... > Phong Nguyen wrote in message news:... > > afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) wrote in > > news:80ae86b7.0205261354.3814ed75@posting.google.com: > > > > > "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message > > > news:... > > >> "DarkStar" wrote in message > > >> news:80ae86b7.0205251948.6e386cb2@posting.google.com... > > >> > Okay, what is this crap? > > >> > > > >> > 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground > > >> > > >> Why not? Are you aware how destructive a 200GT thing is when the Jedi > > >> are all on the ground by then, even if you can make it a fraction of > > >> its full potential? > > >> > > > > > > That's why you don't land the Acclamators at all. Or just do as much > > > as needed to bring down the Hueys to pick up the Jedi survivors, then > > > take off and destroy the Trade Federation spheres and the droid > > > foundry from orbit, or a distance. The ground fight was a waste of > > > clones and equipment. > > > > > And kill all of the civilians in the area? I think not. Since when do the > > Jedi (Yoda appeared to be in command) indiscrimiately kill civilians? > > There were no civilians in the area. The closest civilians had > escaped from the arena, which was some unspecified (but presumably > far) distance from the battle. Really? So all the Foundry workers left the foundry? > > > The reverse of that would be to ask why the Trade Federation bothered > > > sending out droids. A few could be sent out for show to draw the > > > clones and Jedi in, but it would only have taken a few shots from one > > > of their 8 kiloton-point defence cannons to utterly destroy the > > > Republic forces. > > > > > It might have, but there quite possibly would have been serious > > collateral damage. > > Unlikely. A few 8 kiloton blasts within rocky terrain would have had > only a slight effect. For example, the only real problem with the > Trinity site (home of a 20-22 kiloton blast) was the radioactive > fallout. Also, the bomb at Trinity was detonated 100 feet above the > ground, so the only cratering was a shallow (2 meter) crater, and that > was simply soil compression (with a little new glass on top). > Which of course neglects the fact that people were blinded well over 50 miles away. Beyond this you are equating the blast mechanics of nuclear weapons with those of SW energy weapons which, although possesed of the same firepower, do not neccessarily use the same damage mechanisms. Nuclear weapons work primarily on shock waves while SW weaponry seems to work on direct heat transfer which would completely alter the equations for damage radius. > Given the topography and a desire to avoid damage to any underground > facility that may have been near the Republic forces, there were > several targeting options to choose from (they could have shot the > side of one of the hills behind the Jedi), and any of these would have > prevented the loss of countless droids, and the loss of a vessel. You did see the movie to notice that the troops began the engagement within close visual range to one another. Targeting 8 kiloton blasts in amongst your own troops is generally rather wasteful of resources. > > > > In addition, the Trade Federation are somewhat cowardly; they likely put > > all their energy into lifting off rather than shields and weapons. > > > > That makes no sense, and only makes the Trade Federation look worse. > If they were putting all their energy into escape, they left > themselves open to attack. Powering their shields would be a good > plan, since it was apparent that they were under attack. And, if they > wanted to end the battle quickly with a few 8 kiloton shots, they > could have done so by simply charging one or two guns. > Alternatively we could consider that the ships might have been projecting theater shields to prevent orbital bombardment thus once the SPA-Ts were inside the shield radius they had a fee shot. > > > Obi-Wan was not shielded either time, especially when Boba shot at > > > him. I don't think you realize what 600 gigajoules should have done. > > > Boba Fett would have done better with an M61A1 Vulcan 20mm cannon off > > > of an F-104 Starfighter (US Air Force). The bullets have 50 kJ of > > > force behind them coming out of the barrel, and if you use the high > > > explosive incendiary rounds, you can still make a casualty occur two > > > meters from the target. Obi-Wan had "600 gigajoules" blow up in his > > > face and wasn't injured. That means it is not 600 gigajoules. > > > > > Or maybe because Boba just spooled up Slave I and the capacitors were not > > fully charged, hence no 600GJ bursts. Plus, that blast would have likely > > killed Jango and perhaps damaged the landing platform. > > Okay, the weapons could still have been charging. That works. But, > it does lead to the question of where the ICS guy got 600 gigajoules > from. The asteroid scene. > > > > > And you can't say the force protected him, because we saw Jedis get > > > shot and die later with simple droid blasters. > > > > > Ah, but Obi Wan would have had more time to react and prepare - the Jedi > > in the arena did not have that kind of time, not with hordes of battle > > droids shooting at you. > > > > Reacting and preparing were not seen. He got shot at, and was blown > back by the close impact. > > > > Big deal. Doesn't matter if these numbers and "calculations" are old. > > > They are still wrong, and getting someone to throw them in a book > > > doesn't make them any better, whether it is official or not. If I get > > > some company to print a high-quality flyer, with illustrations, that > > > says I have developed a 9mm bullet with a 1 kiloton nuclear explosive > > > that goes off on impact, are you going to believe that even though > > > every time you see me shoot it the thing acts just like a hollowpoint? > > > > > Ooh, look at the strawman. > > It is not a strawman. It is a perfectly good analogy, replacing > blasters with bullets. Skayhan asked if it was possible that Boba > was firing low powered shots. Well, I can say I am, too. Your answer is a strawman because the ICS book is considered a "true and accurate representation" of the SW universe except where it is explicitly contradicted by canon sources. there is a difference between a weapon manufacturer's pamphlet and official material in the SW franchise. The Lucasfilm canon policy requires us to treat the infromation contained with the ATOC:ICS as an accurate representation of the SW universe unless there is a direct contradiction. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) Date: 28 May 2002 11:46:05 -0700 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: <80ae86b7.0205281046.6e7a9d8c@posting.google.com> -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:80ae86b7.0205271908.2ad0d5df@posting.google.com... > > Phong Nguyen wrote in message > news:... > > > afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) wrote in > > > news:80ae86b7.0205261354.3814ed75@posting.google.com: > > > > > > > "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message > > > > news:... > > > >> "DarkStar" wrote in message > > > >> news:80ae86b7.0205251948.6e386cb2@posting.google.com... > > > >> > Okay, what is this crap? > > > >> > > > > >> > 200 gigatons on those troop landers? Why bother with the ground > > > >> > > > >> Why not? Are you aware how destructive a 200GT thing is when the Jedi > > > >> are all on the ground by then, even if you can make it a fraction of > > > >> its full potential? > > > >> > > > > > > > > That's why you don't land the Acclamators at all. Or just do as much > > > > as needed to bring down the Hueys to pick up the Jedi survivors, then > > > > take off and destroy the Trade Federation spheres and the droid > > > > foundry from orbit, or a distance. The ground fight was a waste of > > > > clones and equipment. > > > > > > > And kill all of the civilians in the area? I think not. Since when do > the > > > Jedi (Yoda appeared to be in command) indiscrimiately kill civilians? > > > > There were no civilians in the area. The closest civilians had > > escaped from the arena, which was some unspecified (but presumably > > far) distance from the battle. > > Really? So all the Foundry workers left the foundry? Where is the foundry in relation to the battle site? > > > > > The reverse of that would be to ask why the Trade Federation bothered > > > > sending out droids. A few could be sent out for show to draw the > > > > clones and Jedi in, but it would only have taken a few shots from one > > > > of their 8 kiloton-point defence cannons to utterly destroy the > > > > Republic forces. > > > > > > > It might have, but there quite possibly would have been serious > > > collateral damage. > > > > Unlikely. A few 8 kiloton blasts within rocky terrain would have had > > only a slight effect. For example, the only real problem with the > > Trinity site (home of a 20-22 kiloton blast) was the radioactive > > fallout. Also, the bomb at Trinity was detonated 100 feet above the > > ground, so the only cratering was a shallow (2 meter) crater, and that > > was simply soil compression (with a little new glass on top). > > > > Which of course neglects the fact that people were blinded well over 50 > miles away. Beyond this you are equating the blast mechanics of nuclear Where did that come from? > weapons with those of SW energy weapons which, although possesed of the same > firepower, do not neccessarily use the same damage mechanisms. Nuclear > weapons work primarily on shock waves while SW weaponry seems to work on > direct heat transfer which would completely alter the equations for damage > radius. Actually only about forty percent of the damage of a nuclear blast comes from the shockwave, give or take based on design. Another twenty percent is radiation, and the rest is thermal. Even if you direct a 100% thermal device at a target, you're going to get 'thermal spray' near the target, not to mention a probable explosion from the sudden heat and pressure. Also consider that lightning isn't a nuclear/explosive event, but with a mere 1.5 gigajoules still produces a (relatively) weak shockwave in the form of thunder. Blowing the top off of a nearby mountain would have killed Jedi and clones. Perhaps not all, perhaps not most, but a damn sight more than those silly droids. :) > > > Given the topography and a desire to avoid damage to any underground > > facility that may have been near the Republic forces, there were > > several targeting options to choose from (they could have shot the > > side of one of the hills behind the Jedi), and any of these would have > > prevented the loss of countless droids, and the loss of a vessel. > > You did see the movie to notice that the troops began the engagement within > close visual range to one another. Targeting 8 kiloton blasts in amongst > your own troops is generally rather wasteful of resources. That is why I suggested only sending out a small 'bring-em-closer' force. And if they had fired, they would not have had to wait until the close visual engagement range. I'd love to see what one of Kirk's photon grenades from the Gorn episode would have done. :) > > > In addition, the Trade Federation are somewhat cowardly; they likely put > > > all their energy into lifting off rather than shields and weapons. > > > > > > > That makes no sense, and only makes the Trade Federation look worse. > > If they were putting all their energy into escape, they left > > themselves open to attack. Powering their shields would be a good > > plan, since it was apparent that they were under attack. And, if they > > wanted to end the battle quickly with a few 8 kiloton shots, they > > could have done so by simply charging one or two guns. > > > > Alternatively we could consider that the ships might have been projecting > theater shields to prevent orbital bombardment thus once the SPA-Ts were > inside the shield radius they had a fee shot. > > True, but in Episode I theater shields were visible. Sure, those were Gungan, but the same effect was visible on the Trade Federation destroyer droids. Maybe Geonosis had a planetary shield, but that would force the question of how the Jedi landed those troop transports. > > > > Obi-Wan was not shielded either time, especially when Boba shot at > > > > him. I don't think you realize what 600 gigajoules should have done. > > > > Boba Fett would have done better with an M61A1 Vulcan 20mm cannon off > > > > of an F-104 Starfighter (US Air Force). The bullets have 50 kJ of > > > > force behind them coming out of the barrel, and if you use the high > > > > explosive incendiary rounds, you can still make a casualty occur two > > > > meters from the target. Obi-Wan had "600 gigajoules" blow up in his > > > > face and wasn't injured. That means it is not 600 gigajoules. > > > > > > > Or maybe because Boba just spooled up Slave I and the capacitors were > not > > > fully charged, hence no 600GJ bursts. Plus, that blast would have likely > > > killed Jango and perhaps damaged the landing platform. > > > > Okay, the weapons could still have been charging. That works. But, > > it does lead to the question of where the ICS guy got 600 gigajoules > > from. > > The asteroid scene. As I recall, the asteroid scene beam weapons used were the laser cannons on the midline of the ship under the cockpit, rated for 8E12J, or 8 terajoules (1.9 gigatons), per shot. The platform scene involved the 600 gigajoule blasters. > > > > Big deal. Doesn't matter if these numbers and "calculations" are old. > > > > They are still wrong, and getting someone to throw them in a book > > > > doesn't make them any better, whether it is official or not. If I get > > > > some company to print a high-quality flyer, with illustrations, that > > > > says I have developed a 9mm bullet with a 1 kiloton nuclear explosive > > > > that goes off on impact, are you going to believe that even though > > > > every time you see me shoot it the thing acts just like a hollowpoint? > > > > > > > Ooh, look at the strawman. > > > > It is not a strawman. It is a perfectly good analogy, replacing > > blasters with bullets. Skayhan asked if it was possible that Boba > > was firing low powered shots. Well, I can say I am, too. > > > Your answer is a strawman because the ICS book is considered a "true and > accurate representation" of the SW universe except where it is explicitly > contradicted by canon sources. there is a difference between a weapon > manufacturer's pamphlet and official material in the SW franchise. The > Lucasfilm canon policy requires us to treat the infromation contained with > the ATOC:ICS as an accurate representation of the SW universe unless there > is a direct contradiction. And so, if we only ever see Slave I fire "low powered shots", then no one can claim a contradiction? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: krasnaya@netvigator.com (Kazuaki Shimazaki) Date: 28 May 2002 17:55:59 -0700 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) wrote in message news:<80ae86b7.0205281046.6e7a9d8c@posting.google.com>... > As I recall, the asteroid scene beam weapons used were the laser > cannons on the midline of the ship under the cockpit, rated for 8E12J, > or 8 terajoules (1.9 gigatons), per shot. The platform scene involved > the 600 gigajoule blasters. 8 terajoules is nowhere CLOSE to 1.9 gigatons. > And so, if we only ever see Slave I fire "low powered shots", then no > one can claim a contradiction? It would have been better had you heard something like "Maximum power" and the shot still was unimpressive. But that didn't happen. Even then, the person saying it would be taken into account and all... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 03:15:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message news:ded1f9ac.0205281655.2f1e7250@posting.google.com... > afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) wrote in message news:<80ae86b7.0205281046.6e7a9d8c@posting.google.com>... > > > As I recall, the asteroid scene beam weapons used were the laser > > cannons on the midline of the ship under the cockpit, rated for 8E12J, > > or 8 terajoules (1.9 gigatons), per shot. The platform scene involved > > the 600 gigajoule blasters. > > 8 terajoules is nowhere CLOSE to 1.9 gigatons. But suprisingly close to 1.9 Kilotons. > > > And so, if we only ever see Slave I fire "low powered shots", then no > > one can claim a contradiction? > > It would have been better had you heard something like "Maximum power" > and the shot still was unimpressive. But that didn't happen. Even > then, the person saying it would be taken into account and all... -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kazuaki Shimazaki" Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 18:55:55 +0800 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:ad1v9t$t57gm$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message > news:ded1f9ac.0205281655.2f1e7250@posting.google.com... > > afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) wrote in message > news:<80ae86b7.0205281046.6e7a9d8c@posting.google.com>... > > > > > As I recall, the asteroid scene beam weapons used were the laser > > > cannons on the midline of the ship under the cockpit, rated for 8E12J, > > > or 8 terajoules (1.9 gigatons), per shot. The platform scene involved > > > the 600 gigajoule blasters. > > > > 8 terajoules is nowhere CLOSE to 1.9 gigatons. > > But suprisingly close to 1.9 Kilotons. Pitiful red herring. The point was that he was multiple of orders of magnitudes wrong. Whether 8TJ roughly equals to 1.9 kilotons is totally irrevelant to my criticism that he's badly wrong. Linguistically, it is an error in a prefix. Mathematically, he added about six zeroes too many. -- Kaz Being His Usual Anal Fanatical Self ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 11:59:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message news:ad2cge$tk7k4$1@ID-144261.news.dfncis.de... > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:ad1v9t$t57gm$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > "Kazuaki Shimazaki" wrote in message > > news:ded1f9ac.0205281655.2f1e7250@posting.google.com... > > > afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) wrote in message > > news:<80ae86b7.0205281046.6e7a9d8c@posting.google.com>... > > > > > > > As I recall, the asteroid scene beam weapons used were the laser > > > > cannons on the midline of the ship under the cockpit, rated for > 8E12J, > > > > or 8 terajoules (1.9 gigatons), per shot. The platform scene > involved > > > > the 600 gigajoule blasters. > > > > > > 8 terajoules is nowhere CLOSE to 1.9 gigatons. > > > > But suprisingly close to 1.9 Kilotons. > > Pitiful red herring. The point was that he was multiple of orders of > magnitudes wrong. Whether 8TJ roughly equals to 1.9 kilotons is totally > irrevelant to my criticism that he's badly wrong. Linguistically, it is > an error in a prefix. Mathematically, he added about six zeroes too > many. > > -- > Kaz > Being His Usual Anal Fanatical Self > My god am I glad you added this because otherwise I'd have to remind you that I was being a smart ass to him. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) Date: 29 May 2002 10:44:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: <80ae86b7.0205290944.2bc72f71@posting.google.com> -------- krasnaya@netvigator.com (Kazuaki Shimazaki) wrote in message news:... > afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) wrote in message news:<80ae86b7.0205281046.6e7a9d8c@posting.google.com>... > > > As I recall, the asteroid scene beam weapons used were the laser > > cannons on the midline of the ship under the cockpit, rated for 8E12J, > > or 8 terajoules (1.9 gigatons), per shot. The platform scene involved > > the 600 gigajoule blasters. > > 8 terajoules is nowhere CLOSE to 1.9 gigatons. Whoops. Wrong prefix. I meant kilotons, of course. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 03:14:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:80ae86b7.0205281046.6e7a9d8c@posting.google.com... > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:... > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > news:80ae86b7.0205271908.2ad0d5df@posting.google.com... > > > Phong Nguyen wrote in message > > news:... > > > > afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) wrote in > > > > news:80ae86b7.0205261354.3814ed75@posting.google.com: > > > > > > There were no civilians in the area. The closest civilians had > > > escaped from the arena, which was some unspecified (but presumably > > > far) distance from the battle. > > > > Really? So all the Foundry workers left the foundry? > > Where is the foundry in relation to the battle site? > Right underneath it. The foundry was accessible from the field where the Core Ships were located and the battle took place on a field near where the Core Ships were located. > > > > > > > The reverse of that would be to ask why the Trade Federation bothered > > > > > sending out droids. A few could be sent out for show to draw the > > > > > clones and Jedi in, but it would only have taken a few shots from one > > > > > of their 8 kiloton-point defence cannons to utterly destroy the > > > > > Republic forces. > > > > > > > > > It might have, but there quite possibly would have been serious > > > > collateral damage. > > > > > > Unlikely. A few 8 kiloton blasts within rocky terrain would have had > > > only a slight effect. For example, the only real problem with the > > > Trinity site (home of a 20-22 kiloton blast) was the radioactive > > > fallout. Also, the bomb at Trinity was detonated 100 feet above the > > > ground, so the only cratering was a shallow (2 meter) crater, and that > > > was simply soil compression (with a little new glass on top). > > > > > > > Which of course neglects the fact that people were blinded well over 50 > > miles away. Beyond this you are equating the blast mechanics of nuclear > > Where did that come from? Sorry but I'm confusing my tests, the 50 mile blind radius was during testing some of the first generation 2 stage weapons. > > weapons with those of SW energy weapons which, although possesed of the same > > firepower, do not neccessarily use the same damage mechanisms. Nuclear > > weapons work primarily on shock waves while SW weaponry seems to work on > > direct heat transfer which would completely alter the equations for damage > > radius. > > Actually only about forty percent of the damage of a nuclear blast > comes from the shockwave, give or take based on design. Another > twenty percent is radiation, and the rest is thermal. Even if you > direct a 100% thermal device at a target, you're going to get 'thermal > spray' near the target, not to mention a probable explosion from the > sudden heat and pressure. Right...now lets go back to this and the Trade Fed ships firing point defense weaponry at the advancing troops...thermal spray isn't going to be knocking down terrain formations especially when the Acclamators are at the beachhead with shields of their own and the gunships are deploying troops close in to the Core Ships where there is no real terrain feature seperating them. > Also consider that lightning isn't a nuclear/explosive event, but with > a mere 1.5 gigajoules still produces a (relatively) weak shockwave in > the form of thunder. > > Blowing the top off of a nearby mountain would have killed Jedi and > clones. Perhaps not all, perhaps not most, but a damn sight more than > those silly droids. :) > You might have noticed there weren't all that many handy mountains around. Oh sure there were a coulpe hills but the Acclamators were hiding behind those and you'd be hard pressed to disrupt them with a little dirt. > > > > > Given the topography and a desire to avoid damage to any underground > > > facility that may have been near the Republic forces, there were > > > several targeting options to choose from (they could have shot the > > > side of one of the hills behind the Jedi), and any of these would have > > > prevented the loss of countless droids, and the loss of a vessel. > > > > You did see the movie to notice that the troops began the engagement within > > close visual range to one another. Targeting 8 kiloton blasts in amongst > > your own troops is generally rather wasteful of resources. > > That is why I suggested only sending out a small 'bring-em-closer' > force. And if they had fired, they would not have had to wait until > the close visual engagement range. > They didn't wait. the engagement BEGAN at close range because the Gunships were deploying troops into a hot LZ right up next to the droid army and the Core Ships. Firing upon the gunships with the blasts would have been inefficient and with the droid army already (apparently) in full deployment you can't fire. My main point here is that the chronology of the battle does not suggest an opportunity to use the point defense weaponry to attack the Clone Army. > I'd love to see what one of Kirk's photon grenades from the Gorn > episode would have done. :) Jack and Shit. Clone troopers on the ground were unaffected when an AT-TE blew up right over their head. If they can survive that thing detonating right above them without dying then I think they can handle the Gorn mortar since: The Gorn mortar in "Arena" scored a hit less than 2 metres from Captain Kirk and Commander Spock. In each case, the blast caused a knock-down but not a kill or even a wound. By way of comparison, a fragmentation shell from the lightest modern mortar can kill at 15 metres. Beyond this the close range of the engagement (relative to normal mortar engagement distance) means we aren't looking at weaponry all that much more powerful than Clone Trooper rifles which can turn Droid Dekkas into scrap heaps with one shot. > > > > In addition, the Trade Federation are somewhat cowardly; they likely put > > > > all their energy into lifting off rather than shields and weapons. > > > > > > > > > > That makes no sense, and only makes the Trade Federation look worse. > > > If they were putting all their energy into escape, they left > > > themselves open to attack. Powering their shields would be a good > > > plan, since it was apparent that they were under attack. And, if they > > > wanted to end the battle quickly with a few 8 kiloton shots, they > > > could have done so by simply charging one or two guns. > > > > > > > Alternatively we could consider that the ships might have been projecting > > theater shields to prevent orbital bombardment thus once the SPA-Ts were > > inside the shield radius they had a fee shot. > > > > > > True, but in Episode I theater shields were visible. Sure, those were > Gungan, but the same effect was visible on the Trade Federation > destroyer droids. Maybe Geonosis had a planetary shield, but that > would force the question of how the Jedi landed those troop > transports. Let me explain this slightly differently. The shield would have exteneded outside the battlespace (so as to protect the gorund troops from bombardment) and the4 entire fight would have been under its umbrella. > > > > > Obi-Wan was not shielded either time, especially when Boba shot at > > > > > him. I don't think you realize what 600 gigajoules should have done. > > > > > Boba Fett would have done better with an M61A1 Vulcan 20mm cannon off > > > > > of an F-104 Starfighter (US Air Force). The bullets have 50 kJ of > > > > > force behind them coming out of the barrel, and if you use the high > > > > > explosive incendiary rounds, you can still make a casualty occur two > > > > > meters from the target. Obi-Wan had "600 gigajoules" blow up in his > > > > > face and wasn't injured. That means it is not 600 gigajoules. > > > > > > > > > Or maybe because Boba just spooled up Slave I and the capacitors were > > not > > > > fully charged, hence no 600GJ bursts. Plus, that blast would have likely > > > > killed Jango and perhaps damaged the landing platform. > > > > > > Okay, the weapons could still have been charging. That works. But, > > > it does lead to the question of where the ICS guy got 600 gigajoules > > > from. > > > > The asteroid scene. > > As I recall, the asteroid scene beam weapons used were the laser > cannons on the midline of the ship under the cockpit, rated for 8E12J, > or 8 terajoules (1.9 gigatons), per shot. The platform scene involved > the 600 gigajoule blasters. > My guess then would be scaling the internal power system though I'd have to ask through some channels. In the end of course there is no need to say anything beyond pointing out that at 5% power the thermal radius (even assuming nuclear like effects) would be under 15m. In other words if we assume that Boba is using low powered shots so as to not kill his father than 600 GJ maximum is a fine upper limit. > > > > > Big deal. Doesn't matter if these numbers and "calculations" are old. > > > > > They are still wrong, and getting someone to throw them in a book > > > > > doesn't make them any better, whether it is official or not. If I get > > > > > some company to print a high-quality flyer, with illustrations, that > > > > > says I have developed a 9mm bullet with a 1 kiloton nuclear explosive > > > > > that goes off on impact, are you going to believe that even though > > > > > every time you see me shoot it the thing acts just like a hollowpoint? > > > > > > > > > Ooh, look at the strawman. > > > > > > It is not a strawman. It is a perfectly good analogy, replacing > > > blasters with bullets. Skayhan asked if it was possible that Boba > > > was firing low powered shots. Well, I can say I am, too. > > > > > > Your answer is a strawman because the ICS book is considered a "true and > > accurate representation" of the SW universe except where it is explicitly > > contradicted by canon sources. there is a difference between a weapon > > manufacturer's pamphlet and official material in the SW franchise. The > > Lucasfilm canon policy requires us to treat the infromation contained with > > the ATOC:ICS as an accurate representation of the SW universe unless there > > is a direct contradiction. > > And so, if we only ever see Slave I fire "low powered shots", then no > one can claim a contradiction? Basically yes. Hwoever there must exist a logical rationalization for the use of "low-powered shots" such as, in this case, Boba not wanting to kill his dad. A reasonable person would suppose that he would not use firepower capable of creating a several hundred meter wide blast wave when his Dad was flying nearby. The Gorn mortar in "Arena" scored a hit less than 2 metres from Captain Kirk and Commander Spock. In each case, the blast caused a knock-down but not a kill or even a wound. By way of comparison, a fragmentation shell from the lightest modern mortar can kill at 15 metres. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) Date: 29 May 2002 11:34:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Incredible Cross Sections Message-ID: <80ae86b7.0205291034.36189329@posting.google.com> -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:80ae86b7.0205281046.6e7a9d8c@posting.google.com... > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:... > > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > > > news:80ae86b7.0205271908.2ad0d5df@posting.google.com... > > > > Phong Nguyen wrote in message > news:... > > > > > afinalunity@hotmail.com (DarkStar) wrote in > > > > > news:80ae86b7.0205261354.3814ed75@posting.google.com: > > > > > > > > > There were no civilians in the area. The closest civilians had > > > > escaped from the arena, which was some unspecified (but presumably > > > > far) distance from the battle. > > > > > > Really? So all the Foundry workers left the foundry? > > > > Where is the foundry in relation to the battle site? > > > > Right underneath it. The foundry was accessible from the field where the > Core Ships were located and the battle took place on a field near where the > Core Ships were located. But, when Anakin and Amidala landed her mirror ship, they landed in a location far from that, apparently. I didn't see any spheres or weird towers nearby. Also, though Obi-Wan did land close to the foundry, he walked some unknown distance to the cathedral where Dooku met others. I don't recall offhand whether or not he saw the droid troops then or another time, if at all. > > > > > > The reverse of that would be to ask why the Trade Federation > bothered > > > > > > sending out droids. A few could be sent out for show to draw the > > > > > > clones and Jedi in, but it would only have taken a few shots from > one > > > > > > of their 8 kiloton-point defence cannons to utterly destroy the > > > > > > Republic forces. > > > > > > > > > > > It might have, but there quite possibly would have been serious > > > > > collateral damage. > > > > > > > > Unlikely. A few 8 kiloton blasts within rocky terrain would have had > > > > only a slight effect. For example, the only real problem with the > > > > Trinity site (home of a 20-22 kiloton blast) was the radioactive > > > > fallout. Also, the bomb at Trinity was detonated 100 feet above the > > > > ground, so the only cratering was a shallow (2 meter) crater, and that > > > > was simply soil compression (with a little new glass on top). > > > > > > > > > > Which of course neglects the fact that people were blinded well over 50 > > > miles away. Beyond this you are equating the blast mechanics of nuclear > > > > Where did that come from? > > Sorry but I'm confusing my tests, the 50 mile blind radius was during > testing some of the first generation 2 stage weapons. > It's okay. I messed up SI prefixes earlier, so I'll give you that one. :) > > > > weapons with those of SW energy weapons which, although possesed of the > same > > > firepower, do not neccessarily use the same damage mechanisms. Nuclear > > > weapons work primarily on shock waves while SW weaponry seems to work on > > > direct heat transfer which would completely alter the equations for > damage > > > radius. > > > > Actually only about forty percent of the damage of a nuclear blast > > comes from the shockwave, give or take based on design. Another > > twenty percent is radiation, and the rest is thermal. Even if you > > direct a 100% thermal device at a target, you're going to get 'thermal > > spray' near the target, not to mention a probable explosion from the > > sudden heat and pressure. > > Right...now lets go back to this and the Trade Fed ships firing point > defense weaponry at the advancing troops...thermal spray isn't going to be > knocking down terrain formations especially when the Acclamators are at the > beachhead with shields of their own and the gunships are deploying troops > close in to the Core Ships where there is no real terrain feature seperating > them. > I'm remembering the scene with the roller-tank things that shot purple missiles. As they rolled toward the clones, you could see the terrain behind the clones. There wasn't much of anything between the clones and droids, but that isn't important. The point defence cannons could have shot the hills behind the clones (or closer to the clones, if need be, but still behind them) and the blast radius would have been an acceptable risk. > > Also consider that lightning isn't a nuclear/explosive event, but with > > a mere 1.5 gigajoules still produces a (relatively) weak shockwave in > > the form of thunder. > > > > Blowing the top off of a nearby mountain would have killed Jedi and > > clones. Perhaps not all, perhaps not most, but a damn sight more than > > those silly droids. :) > > > > You might have noticed there weren't all that many handy mountains around. > Oh sure there were a coulpe hills but the Acclamators were hiding behind > those