---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Pownall" Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 19:39:57 GMT Subject: Common Values? Message-ID: <3d29ea81@news.zen.co.uk> -------- Are there any agreed upon Values for any of the following (for either side)? Fleet Size. Weapons power and range. Sensor Range. Shield Power. Armor Strength. I ask because I have heard one person sate one ISD could take on all of Starfleet and another said less than 30 GCS could take out an ISD - (I have seen lower than that but those people were badly flamed). So I was wondering if there was a range that either side agreed on and if not how can either side prove that they would win since no one agrees on anything? Thanks for the Time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 00:44:51 GMT Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: <7mqW8.341747$_j6.16305711@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> -------- "Doomriser" wrote in message news:3d2a037c_1@news.cybersurf.net... > "Alan Pownall" wrote in message > news:3d29ea81@news.zen.co.uk... > > Are there any agreed upon Values for any of the following (for either > > side)? > > > > Off the top of my head: > > > Fleet Size. > > SW: at least 12 Executors, 25,000 ISDs + millions of support ships > ST: 2-4,000 ships, up to 8-12,000 including fighters The Dominion Alliance had at least 30,000 ships, as per dialog from "Tacking into The Wind", so I doubt the Federation/Romulan/Klingon Alliance had less than at least 10,000. In that episode, the Klingons were going to convert 1500 ships to resist the Breen weapon, so that is either their total ship count or a low-end estimate of Klingon fleet strength. If that was the total, that leaves 8,500 ships between the Romulans and Federation, late in the war after heavy Federation losses had already occurred. > > > Weapons power and range. > > SW: multi-gigaton heavy turbolasers, multi-megaton point defense lasers, > ranges from 10,000 to 30,000,000 km or so > > ST: <1TW phasers with theoretical range of 300,000 Km, actual combat range > of <40 km These are not accepted values. > > Sensor Range. > > 3 LY for Trek sensors > I forget the Wars but instantaneous comms range is at least 100 LY That is not an accepted Trek value. A warship in "Transfigurations" was detected almost 11 hours away, and that warship was traveling warp 9.72. Warp 9.9 is about 2 light years per hour, but even dropping that by half, the warship was 11 light years away. Geordi in "The Wounded" gives ten light years as a figure for finding a ship that doesn't want to be found. Star Wars ships can't detect a Millenium Falcon sitting in an asteroid, sitting on an ISD hull, floating away with the garbage, and so on. I'm not familiar with anything in the canon that gives them FTL sensors, either. > > Shield Power. > > SW: Multi-teraton > ST: Low megaton > > > Armor Strength. > > > SW: 20 metres on ISD, Acclamators and presumably other SW ships have > neutronium alloys But a 42 terajoule collision destroys them. > ST: What armor? Seriously. It is capable of holding off 12,000 degrees. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Pownall" Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 00:54:37 GMT Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: <3d2a3442$1@news.zen.co.uk> -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:7mqW8.341747$_j6.16305711@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Doomriser" wrote in message > news:3d2a037c_1@news.cybersurf.net... > > "Alan Pownall" wrote in message > > news:3d29ea81@news.zen.co.uk... > > > Sensor Range. > > > > 3 LY for Trek sensors > > I forget the Wars but instantaneous comms range is at least 100 LY > > That is not an accepted Trek value. A warship in "Transfigurations" was > detected almost 11 hours away, and that warship was traveling warp 9.72. > Warp 9.9 is about 2 light years per hour, but even dropping that by half, > the warship was 11 light years away. Geordi in "The Wounded" gives ten > light years as a figure for finding a ship that doesn't want to be found. > > Star Wars ships can't detect a Millenium Falcon sitting in an asteroid, > sitting on an ISD hull, floating away with the garbage, and so on. I'm not > familiar with anything in the canon that gives them FTL sensors, either. I have wondered about this - in ESB they believe the Falcon has gone to FTL speed and thus can no longer pick it up so they try to calucate points along the Falcons last known trajectory however if they had FTL sensors they should have seen it leaving sensor range however this lapse indicates they dont have FTL sensors and also cant detect when a ship enters hyperspace. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:31:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: -------- "Alan Pownall" wrote in message news:3d2a3442$1@news.zen.co.uk... > > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:7mqW8.341747$_j6.16305711@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > "Doomriser" wrote in message > > news:3d2a037c_1@news.cybersurf.net... > > > "Alan Pownall" wrote in message > > > news:3d29ea81@news.zen.co.uk... > > > > > > Sensor Range. > > > > > > 3 LY for Trek sensors > > > I forget the Wars but instantaneous comms range is at least 100 LY > > > > That is not an accepted Trek value. A warship in "Transfigurations" was > > detected almost 11 hours away, and that warship was traveling warp 9.72. > > Warp 9.9 is about 2 light years per hour, but even dropping that by half, > > the warship was 11 light years away. Geordi in "The Wounded" gives ten > > light years as a figure for finding a ship that doesn't want to be found. > > > > Star Wars ships can't detect a Millenium Falcon sitting in an asteroid, > > sitting on an ISD hull, floating away with the garbage, and so on. I'm > not > > familiar with anything in the canon that gives them FTL sensors, either. > > I have wondered about this - in ESB they believe the Falcon has gone to FTL > speed and thus can no longer pick it up so they try to calucate points along > the Falcons last known trajectory however if they had FTL sensors they > should have seen it leaving sensor range however this lapse indicates they > dont have FTL sensors and also cant detect when a ship enters hyperspace. > They have to have FTL sensors otherwise the events in ESB would not have transpired as they did, the only requirement not to be able to track the Falcon is that sensor packets would have to be slower than maximum velocity of the vessel which can't be tracked (though vessels CAN be tracked in hyperspace ref. Black Fleet Crisis Trilogy). In other words if your sensor pulses travel at 1,000,000c and ships can travel at 10,000,000c then they will outrun your sensor pulses evne though you have a set of FTL sensors. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Pownall" Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 02:37:51 GMT Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: <3d2a4c72@news.zen.co.uk> -------- "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message news:agdhv9$ksqr9$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > They have to have FTL sensors otherwise the events in ESB would not have > transpired as they did, the only requirement not to be able to track the > Falcon is that sensor packets would have to be slower than maximum velocity > of the vessel which can't be tracked (though vessels CAN be tracked in > hyperspace ref. Black Fleet Crisis Trilogy). In other words if your sensor > pulses travel at 1,000,000c and ships can travel at 10,000,000c then they > will outrun your sensor pulses evne though you have a set of FTL sensors. So they have FTL sensors but those sensors arent much use when tracking an FTL ship, however we dont know what level of FTL we are talking about.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cmdrwilkens" Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:18:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: -------- "Alan Pownall" wrote in message news:3d2a4c72@news.zen.co.uk... > > "Cmdrwilkens" wrote in message > news:agdhv9$ksqr9$1@ID-97732.news.dfncis.de... > > > They have to have FTL sensors otherwise the events in ESB would not have > > transpired as they did, the only requirement not to be able to track the > > Falcon is that sensor packets would have to be slower than maximum > velocity > > of the vessel which can't be tracked (though vessels CAN be tracked in > > hyperspace ref. Black Fleet Crisis Trilogy). In other words if your sensor > > pulses travel at 1,000,000c and ships can travel at 10,000,000c then they > > will outrun your sensor pulses evne though you have a set of FTL sensors. > > > So they have FTL sensors but those sensors arent much use when tracking an > FTL ship, however we dont know what level of FTL we are talking about.. > They aren't any use tracking the Falcon (which is admittedly one of the fastest ships in existence) however they cn track other slower vessels (the Teljkon Vagabond for instance). So basically we know their sensor packets are at least as fast as the Teljkon Vagabond. -- Lcpl Burnett, G.R. USMCR BridgeCo B 6th EngSptBN 4th FSSG "Weapons do not penetrate armour based on force and pressure" - IXJac(taken from SB.com and SD.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nitramtahalshia@aol.comAntiSpam (Sir Nitram) Date: 09 Jul 2002 00:54:39 GMT Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: <20020708205439.01577.00004784@mb-cg.aol.com> -------- >"Doomriser" wrote in message >news:3d2a037c_1@news.cybersurf.net... >> "Alan Pownall" wrote in message >> news:3d29ea81@news.zen.co.uk... >> > Are there any agreed upon Values for any of the following (for either >> > side)? >> > >> >> Off the top of my head: >> >> > Fleet Size. >> >> SW: at least 12 Executors, 25,000 ISDs + millions of support ships >> ST: 2-4,000 ships, up to 8-12,000 including fighters > >The Dominion Alliance had at least 30,000 ships, as per dialog from "Tacking >into The Wind", so I doubt the Federation/Romulan/Klingon Alliance had less >than at least 10,000. In that episode, the Klingons were going to convert >1500 ships to resist the Breen weapon, so that is either their total ship >count or a low-end estimate of Klingon fleet strength. If that was the >total, that leaves 8,500 ships between the Romulans and Federation, late in >the war after heavy Federation losses had already occurred. > >> >> > Weapons power and range. >> >> SW: multi-gigaton heavy turbolasers, multi-megaton point defense lasers, >> ranges from 10,000 to 30,000,000 km or so >> >> ST: <1TW phasers with theoretical range of 300,000 Km, actual combat range >> of <40 km > >These are not accepted values. > Poor little troll. Why not? Because they make you cry? -- SirNitram ASVS Small Gods Keeper and Amateur Genius Uptight Christians pray for God to save themselves. Upright Christians pray for God to save others in need. "And they say that a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand here to wait..." -Hero ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:35:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: <3d2af4ca_2@news.cybersurf.net> -------- "DarkStar" wrote in message news:7mqW8.341747$_j6.16305711@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > The Dominion Alliance had at least 30,000 ships, as per dialog from "Tacking > into The Wind", so I doubt the Federation/Romulan/Klingon Alliance had less > than at least 10,000. How many of those "ships" were Jem Hadar "bugs"? Based on ratios in the show, a majority of them must have been. It would take, what, 100-500 of those to mass as much an an ISD? In that episode, the Klingons were going to convert > 1500 ships to resist the Breen weapon, so that is either their total ship > count or a low-end estimate of Klingon fleet strength. If that was the > total, that leaves 8,500 ships between the Romulans and Federation, late in > the war after heavy Federation losses had already occurred. > 1. Your 10,000 ship figure is entirely arbitrary 2. They don't even need 10,000, since the average Fed/Klingon/Romulan ship is larger than the the average JH ship plus the Allies were generally on the defensive. 3. Is it 30,000 for the entire Dominion (on both sides of the wormhole) or just the AQ because that makes a huge difference. 4. The Allies can have a much smaller fleet 'cause they were losing and outmatched most of the time. > Star Wars ships can't detect a Millenium Falcon sitting in an asteroid, > sitting on an ISD hull, floating away with the garbage, and so on. I'm not > familiar with anything in the canon that gives them FTL sensors, either. > ST ships can't detect a Ferengi ship "hiding" on a moon crater (which would have been a helluva lot easier to detect than the MF inside the belly of a space slug, inside an asteroid.) ST ships can't detect vessels over the magnetic pole of a planet. ST ships can't detect a pair of magnetic boots inside a storage locker on their own ship. So fuck off. > > SW: 20 metres on ISD, Acclamators and presumably other SW ships have > > neutronium alloys > > But a 42 terajoule collision destroys them. > Eh? > > It is capable of holding off 12,000 degrees. > What, 12,000 degrees distributed evenly over the whole area of the shield? > -- -=Doomriser "There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages." -- Richard Lederer, "Anguished English" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Boyd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:08:21 +0100 Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: -------- Doomriser wrote: >> The Dominion Alliance had at least 30,000 ships, as per dialog from "Tacking >> into The Wind", so I doubt the Federation/Romulan/Klingon Alliance had less >> than at least 10,000. > How many of those "ships" were Jem Hadar "bugs"? Based on ratios in the > show, a majority of them must have been. Evidence? And how big a majority? 2/3 of them? 90%? 4 in 7? > It would take, what, 100-500 of those to mass as much an an ISD? He wasn't talking about bugs and ISDs. He was talking about Dominion and anti-Dominion. >> In that episode, the Klingons were going to convert 1500 ships to resist the >> Breen weapon, so that is either their total ship count or a low-end estimate >> of Klingon fleet strength. If that was the total, that leaves 8,500 ships >> between the Romulans and Federation, late in the war after heavy Federation >> losses had already occurred. > 1. Your 10,000 ship figure is entirely arbitrary Indeed it is. I always > 2. They don't even need 10,000, since the average Fed/Klingon/Romulan ship > is larger than the the average JH ship plus the Allies were generally on the > defensive. Proof of average size for both sides? And size is irrelevant. Capabilities are what matter. A GCS, an above-average Fed ship, is a match for 3 bugs at the very most. > 3. Is it 30,000 for the entire Dominion (on both sides of the wormhole) or > just the AQ because that makes a huge difference. I'm pretty sure that's the AQ side. > 4. The Allies can have a much smaller fleet 'cause they were losing and > outmatched most of the time. >> It is capable of holding off 12,000 degrees. > What, 12,000 degrees distributed evenly over the whole area of the shield? No, 12,000 degrees hitting the hull as they fly between a pair of stars. -- Jonathan Boyd MSN/AIM: EmperorBoyd | Web: http://www.jboyd.co.uk/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:38:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: <3d2b3ba6_2@news.cybersurf.net> -------- "Jonathan Boyd" wrote in message news:B950C905.2EBF%jonathanboyd@mac.com... > Doomriser wrote: > > > > How many of those "ships" were Jem Hadar "bugs"? Based on ratios in the > > show, a majority of them must have been. > > Evidence? And how big a majority? 2/3 of them? 90%? 4 in 7? > Watch the friggin show. What do you see more of? What do you hear mentioned more often? JH attack bugs or JH battlecruisers? JH attack bugs, Cardassian Galors, and assorted "fighters" make up most of that 30,000. > > It would take, what, 100-500 of those to mass as much an an ISD? > > He wasn't talking about bugs and ISDs. He was talking about Dominion and > anti-Dominion. > This _thread_ is about SW ship numbers vs ST ship numbers. It is misleading to count a JH bug as being as much of a "ship" as an ISD. > > 1. Your 10,000 ship figure is entirely arbitrary > > Indeed it is. I always > > > Proof of average size for both sides? And size is irrelevant. Capabilities > are what matter. A GCS, an above-average Fed ship, is a match for 3 bugs at > the very most. > We know the Fed fleet is about 2-4,000 ships in peacetime, based on BOBW where it would take 1 year to build 40 ships and taking into consideration to service lifespan of ST ships. Which is better than the figure you pulled out of your ass. > > 3. Is it 30,000 for the entire Dominion (on both sides of the wormhole) or > > just the AQ because that makes a huge difference. > > I'm pretty sure that's the AQ side. > This is worth investigating further. > > 4. The Allies can have a much smaller fleet 'cause they were losing and > > outmatched most of the time. > > > No, 12,000 degrees hitting the hull as they fly between a pair of stars. > -- Damn, now I'll have to look up the rebuttal. -- -=Doomriser "There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages." -- Richard Lederer, "Anguished English" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Boyd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 02:34:09 +0100 Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: -------- Doomriser wrote: > "Jonathan Boyd" wrote in message > news:B950C905.2EBF%jonathanboyd@mac.com... >> Doomriser wrote: >> >> >>> How many of those "ships" were Jem Hadar "bugs"? Based on ratios in the >>> show, a majority of them must have been. >> >> Evidence? And how big a majority? 2/3 of them? 90%? 4 in 7? >> > > Watch the friggin show. What do you see more of? What do you hear mentioned > more often? JH attack bugs or JH battlecruisers? JH attack bugs, Cardassian > Galors, and assorted "fighters" make up most of that 30,000. Once again, how big a majority? That's what matters, which is why I asked for evidence. >>> It would take, what, 100-500 of those to mass as much an an ISD? >> He wasn't talking about bugs and ISDs. He was talking about Dominion and >> anti-Dominion. > This _thread_ is about SW ship numbers vs ST ship numbers. It is misleading > to count a JH bug as being as much of a "ship" as an ISD. IIRC, he merely said 20,000 ships. He didn't say 30,000 ships equivalent to ISDs. >>> 1. Your 10,000 ship figure is entirely arbitrary >> Indeed it is. I always >> Proof of average size for both sides? And size is irrelevant. Capabilities >> are what matter. A GCS, an above-average Fed ship, is a match for 3 bugs at >> the very most. > We know the Fed fleet is about 2-4,000 ships in peacetime, based on BOBW > where it would take 1 year to build 40 ships and taking into consideration > to service lifespan of ST ships. Which is better than the figure you pulled > out of your ass. I never estimated the number of ships, so what figure would you be referring today? -- Jonathan Boyd MSN/AIM: EmperorBoyd | Web: http://www.jboyd.co.uk/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:31:24 GMT Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: -------- "Doomriser" wrote in message news:3d2af4ca_2@news.cybersurf.net... > "DarkStar" wrote in message > news:7mqW8.341747$_j6.16305711@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > The Dominion Alliance had at least 30,000 ships, as per dialog from > "Tacking > > into The Wind", so I doubt the Federation/Romulan/Klingon Alliance had > less > > than at least 10,000. > > How many of those "ships" were Jem Hadar "bugs"? Based on ratios in the > show, a majority of them must have been. It would take, what, 100-500 of > those to mass as much an an ISD? Something like that, probably. > > In that episode, the Klingons were going to convert > > 1500 ships to resist the Breen weapon, so that is either their total ship > > count or a low-end estimate of Klingon fleet strength. If that was the > > total, that leaves 8,500 ships between the Romulans and Federation, late > in > > the war after heavy Federation losses had already occurred. > > > 1. Your 10,000 ship figure is entirely arbitrary No, not entirely. Although, now that you mention it, I'm reminded of the "overwhelming" force from The Die is Cast. 150 of the small Dominion ships versus 30 Warbirds and Keldons. So, for overwhelming numbers, they shoot for 5 to 1. On the other hand, if the Dominion axis had been in possession of 5 to 1 odds, they probably would have used it for a massed invasion, not the constant withering advances they seemed to engage in. So, I figure that my estimate of 3 to 1 odds is probably pretty fair. > 2. They don't even need 10,000, since the average Fed/Klingon/Romulan ship > is larger than the the average JH ship plus the Allies were generally on the > defensive. Bigger isn't always better. Remember, this is the show with the Defiant. Also, in "The Jem'Hadar", a Galaxy Class ship was defeated by three small JH ships, and they would have sufferred no losses except for the ramming maneuver that destroyed the Federation ship. Granted, the Galaxy was without effective shields, but not being able to wound the JH ships significantly though firing a great deal should give you some idea of their strength. > 3. Is it 30,000 for the entire Dominion (on both sides of the wormhole) or > just the AQ because that makes a huge difference. Well, the war's in the Alpha Quadrant, so I assume they were talking about the ships there. And remember, that's the Dominion, Cardassians, and Breen, so it is a reasonable assumption. > 4. The Allies can have a much smaller fleet 'cause they were losing and > outmatched most of the time. The 3 to 1 odds sound good. That will also involve larger ships like the Galor and Breen ships. > > Star Wars ships can't detect a Millenium Falcon sitting in an asteroid, > > sitting on an ISD hull, floating away with the garbage, and so on. I'm > not > > familiar with anything in the canon that gives them FTL sensors, either. > > > > ST ships can't detect a Ferengi ship "hiding" on a moon crater (which would > have been a helluva lot easier to detect than the MF inside the belly of a > space slug, inside an asteroid.) The Stargazer was passing through minding its own business. They weren't looking for hidden Ferengi ships. Also, that was 30 years ago. > ST ships can't detect vessels over the magnetic pole of a planet. True, it has been known to cause problems. > ST ships can't detect a pair of magnetic boots > inside a storage locker on their own ship. That was a hundred years ago. But, two hundred years ago, we could read alien DNA when they are still on their ship, peek at a conversation of two people on a planet's surface from orbit, and other minor miracles like that. 120 years ago, we could trace the electronic signal of a telephone from one receiver to another in the phone system from orbit. And now, we scan ten light-years' radius for a ship that doesn't want to be found. Getting better, getting better. Of course, we were already better than SW. > > > SW: 20 metres on ISD, Acclamators and presumably other SW ships have > > > neutronium alloys > > > > But a 42 terajoule collision destroys them. > > > > Eh? The bridge tower. > > It is capable of holding off 12,000 degrees. > > > What, 12,000 degrees distributed evenly over the whole area of the shield? That was given as the hull temperature while they were near a star in Descent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doomriser" Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:43:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: <3d2b3cf5_2@news.cybersurf.net> -------- > > The bridge tower. > Gee, I didn't know that the Bridge Tower was as heavily armoured as the dorsal and ventral surfaces. Not like its chock full of windows, etc.. > > > It is capable of holding off 12,000 degrees. > > > > > What, 12,000 degrees distributed evenly over the whole area of the shield? > > That was given as the hull temperature while they were near a star in > Descent. > Aha! Found Wong's rebuttal: "Realism: Taitt says the hull is at a ridiculously high 12,000°C (which should vapourize any substance), but we can see the hull and it isn't glowing with many times the intensity of the Sun (whose photosphere temperature is less than half that). It's not even red hot! It's possible to rationalize the temperature as a function of the shield's point of thermal equilibrium with the environment, but it's obvious this sort of thing didn't even occur to the writers. They just don't seem to care about making their figures meaningful, so that they just toss out impressive-sounding numbers without ever bothering to wonder if they make any sense." Anyway, this figure is not meaningful in the context of the debate. It contradicts lower shielding figures, and besides, the stuff that Imperial weapons use (plasma or charged particles) does strongly affect ST shielding. -=Doomriser ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Pownall" Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:56:53 GMT Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: <3d2b3ff9@news.zen.co.uk> -------- "Doomriser" wrote in message news:3d2b3cf5_2@news.cybersurf.net... > > > > It is capable of holding off 12,000 degrees. > > > > > > > What, 12,000 degrees distributed evenly over the whole area of the > shield? > > > > That was given as the hull temperature while they were near a star in > > Descent. > > > Aha! Found Wong's rebuttal: > "Realism: Taitt says the hull is at a ridiculously high 12,000°C (which > should vapourize any substance), but we can see the hull and it isn't > glowing with many times the intensity of the Sun (whose photosphere > temperature is less than half that). It's not even red hot! It's possible to > rationalize the temperature as a function of the shield's point of thermal > equilibrium with the environment, but it's obvious this sort of thing didn't > even occur to the writers. They just don't seem to care about making their > figures meaningful, so that they just toss out impressive-sounding numbers > without ever bothering to wonder if they make any sense." Anyway, this > figure is not meaningful in the context of the debate. It contradicts lower > shielding figures, and besides, the stuff that Imperial weapons use (plasma > or charged particles) does strongly affect ST shielding. > > -=Doomriser Isnt the figure the hull temperature and thus at least proves the hull is strongly resistant to heating affects and thus Wongs reference to shields confuses me. I wont mention Vong hot rocks - blast, sorry :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DarkStar" Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:20:41 GMT Subject: Re: Common Values? Message-ID: -------- "Alan Pownall" wrote in message news:3d2b3ff9@news.zen.co.uk... > > "Doomriser" wrote in message > news:3d2b3cf5_2@news.cybersurf.net... > > > > > > It is capable of holding off 12,000 degrees. > > > > > > > > > What, 12,000 degrees distributed evenly over the whole area of the > > shield? > > > > > > That was given as the hull temperature while they were near a star in > > > Descent. > > > > > Aha! Found Wong's rebuttal: > > "Realism: Taitt says the hull is at a ridiculously high 12,000°C (which > > should vapourize any substance), but we can see the hull and it isn't > > glowing with many times the intensity of the Sun (whose photosphere > > temperature is less than half that). It's not even red hot! In other words, the "Wah-Wah-Wah!" defense he accuses others of using.